Setting rank/age requirements for SPL, others

[Eagledad]

Well, I dont have a full grasp of your troop, but I would consider the idea of making youre old SPL a JASM with two responsibilities; SPL advisor, and New Scout Guide.

 

My thinking is this; your oldest SPL was pushing the troop growth with his leadership and maturity. If you let him stand back now, you might loose that momentum. As a JASM, you can still advise him on a day to day basis, and the challenges of job responsibilities will provide him continued growth. You will still be the advisor for the SPL, but now a lot of what you advise can go through the JASM.

 

I give him the additional task of New Scout Guide because I find guys like him to be very good with new scouts. I dont know if you put your new scouts with mixed age patrols or do a NSP, but by being an advisor, your JASM can advise a TG in the NSP, do the job himself, or guide the new scouts in the mixed age patrols or whatever. And advisor is flexible enough to fill in the gap where needed.

 

It could be a little tricky, but advising the SPL shouldnt require a great deal of the JASMs time, just his experience and knowledge. So he should have time for the new scouts. Which I think he will be great.

 

As for the new SPL, he needs to feel the weight of what he bought with his bribes. Make him grow faster then he is comfortable because the task is really above him. But dont let it be so uncomfortable that he mentally quits in the middle. Just make sure he has stretch marks from his growth.

 

As I said, these ideas may not fit in with your troop dynamics at all. I just look for ways to keep scouts challenged and growing. JASM is kind of that next step for SPLs, and there is no reason why he shouldnt run for the SPL again next fall. In fact I would plant that expectation in him.

 

Hope this doesnt confuse your thinking. Im sure this is difficult.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

Yah, youth elections if yer goin' to use 'em are hard things to manage well. It takes some savvy to recognize when yeh should use runoff elections, or how to "nudge" here and there, or when to go with appointments or whatnot. Yeh just demonstrated one of a bout 8 dozen different less-than-desirable election outcomes. In this case, the lads are treatin' elections as a game, to be "gamed" and won, rather than as a calling to service. Put that in your notes as somethin' for them to learn down the road.

 

How often are your elections? In other words, how long can yeh live with less-than-desirable without it impactin' program too severely?

 

I think in general, yeh let things stand without comment. Your new SPL can try to order the older boys to do everything, but that ain't gonna last long, eh? What's gonna happen is he's quickly going to experience what leadership really means in terms of work and criticism from his peers. It ain't orderin' people about and playin' one group against another. Yeh have to let him experience that, full force, to da point of frustration and a tear or two ... but not complete discouragement. Provide good "Roses and Thorns" opportunities so that criticism comes in a controllable and helpful way. Yeh also have to let it go long enough so that everybody in the troop sees the consequences of their choices, eh?

 

One of two things will happen. After quite a struggle and adaptation and a lot of stretchin', the new SPL will grow into the job, and grow a lot from it in da process. Or the new SPL isn't mature enough yet to do that, and he's gonna sink. You know the lad better than we do, eh? From what yeh say though about how he got elected, I'd guess he might be in the second group . If he is, you'll be sorely tempted to bail him out and support him and be more adult run. Fight the temptation. Let him sink, let him and the troop feel the stress and even a failure or two! Just don't let anyone drown .

 

Have a plan in your head for conducting new elections in 3-6 months, and how you're gonna handle requests for "recall" if that comes up. Make sure it's a respectful, well-managed process.

 

Then be happy, eh? It's through this kind of stuff that the kids learn!

 

Beavah

 

[dan]

I think I would sit down with the new SPL and ask him how he is going to make the older scouts do everything, and also how he was going to uphold his election promise to the two younger scouts while following the Scout Oath and Law.

 

 

[gwd-scouter]

I like the idea of JASM, but I've had little success in the past with former SPLs transitioning to that job. I admit I didn't handle them very well. In the past, our former SPLs were 17 years old, at the threshold of Eagle, completed their PORs, and were not at all interested in doing anything with the troop other than show up from time-to-time to find out what they still needed to do to "make" Eagle. We currently have a guy in the JASM position, also 17, also needing only to finish a few merit badge requirements for Eagle, who has been absent these past few months due to sports conflicts. Good news is, he has kept in touch with me and has made efforts to attend a few campouts, even if only for a day, to help out. So, at least he is making an effort to live up to my expectations.

 

Our most recent SPL, stepping down now to make way for the guy just elected, has talked to me about his future role in the Troop. He understands that our new SPL will need a LOT of guidance and mentoring and I think the job of JASM would be perfect for him. My son was picked as ASPL. He and the former SPL were really the only two Scouts that I considered ready for the SPL job. Both have had troop level JLT and Council NYLT. Son worked on staff this past year of summer camp, has been a Den Chief and Troop Guide for the past two years. So, though not perfect by any means, he's had experience with leadership. He has also said he would help new SPL in his job.

 

I have learned a great deal from this experience. I was thrilled to see so many of our Scouts interested in leadership, albeit some of them for the wrong reasons. I think my glee over all the marvelous changes and growth that have been made in our Troop blinded me a bit to my responsibility to make sure boy-led doesn't turn into boy-led-into-the-ground. New SPL, for instance, will find out very quickly that he may have gotten more than he bargained for. I have very high expectations for these guys-something I communicate clearly and often-I just don't think he fully believes it. Former SPL made the job look easy because he had experience and maturity.

 

So, we move forward into 2008. New youth leaders, new dynamics, new challenges. I've often reflected on the fact that a troop is not a fixed thing that operates smoothly year after year. Training and mentoring methods that may have worked with one group of Scouts, may not work at all with the next group. A troop and it's Scouts need constant and consistent attention - guess that's why I get paid the BIG BUCKS!

 

Thank you folks for all your suggestions.

 

Wish us luck in 2008.

[scoutmaster52]

Two years ago the PLC decided that there had to be requirements for leadership, voted on it, presented it to the Troop and had it radified by the Troop.

Patrol Leader/ ASPL: Had to be 1ST class and had to meet an participation requirement.

SPL: same as above but had to serve as 1 as PL or ASPL before.

Retiring SPL(not Eagle) to become Troop Guide and advisor for current SPL

Retiring SPL(Eagle) Appointed JASM

[Stosh]

In terms of leadership, if the boy is capable of functioning at a position he ought to be given the chance.

 

Too often we have high ranking, active scouts that can't do the job, but other boys wishing they had the opportunity to try. My vote goes with the boy who's willing to try, learn and work at it. I don't think rank many times is indicative of their heart as much as it is their mind. They may know what to do, but can or are they willing to do it? Big difference.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Eagledad]

Great Monday All

 

>>Retiring SPL(not Eagle) to become Troop Guide and advisor for current SPL

 

Retiring SPL(Eagle) Appointed JASM

[gwd-scouter]

Update on our junior leaders. Had Troop JLT a couple of weekends ago at my house. All five new leaders present and it went very well. The best thing to come out of the training I think was that the guys came together by the end rather than entering their new positions with some negative attitudes that resulted from the election. New SPL is young and inexperienced, but I think the other guys are more interested in helping the troop continue its momentum toward boy leadership, rather than trying to undermine the SPL. Fantastic.

 

After speaking with outgoing SPL, he thought he'd like to work as JASM with specific attention to advising and mentoring new SPL (oh yeah, experienced senior Scout stepping up and a little bit less on my plate). We've reinstated the Scribe position for this year and the Scout in the position is excited and ready to begin. My son was selected to be ASPL and he's happy in that job. One of the other guys that ran for SPL was selected to be Troop Guide. Older son, as ASM for the Troop, has volunteered to work with this Scout to help him learn how to train and mentor our new Scouts.

 

At the end of our training day, I talked with the guys about our Troop and how they, as leaders, set the tone for the Troop. A couple of them may be young and inexperienced and most likely would not be eligible to fill these PORs in other Troops, but the enthusiasm and willingness to learn they showed during training gives me a good feeling for the year ahead.

 

So here we go into 2008.

[scoutmaster52]

Eagledad,

This was decided on by the PLC and wholeheartedly endorsed by the Troop. Yearly this is voted on by the PLC. One boys reasoning is that it gives the eagles additional recognition and opens up the field of other positions to others. This is not to say that an Eagle can't run for SPL. Additional note PLC met last night and changed the requirements fo SPL. Must be 1ST class , proven leadership, and participation are the standard to run for ASPL. The current ASPL will become SPL. This must br voted on by the Troop as well.

[gwd-scouter]

Wow, have six months gone by already? What an interesting time we've had with our junior leaders. Some good things, some bad experiences.

 

I would say that young SPL tried in the beginning to do a good job. The problem was, none of the other Scouts in the Troop respected him, especially those that he bribed to get the vote in the first place. He was frustrated, his mother called or emailed complaining that she didn't understand why he had to do XXX or YYY, and that I was expecting too much. When young SPL failed to follow through on plans for a meeting or didn't prepare and showed obvious lack of knowledge about something, my younger son would step in. This led to complaints that I was showing favoritism, that I really wanted my son to be SPL and was purposefully encouraging him to take over and embarrass young SPL.

 

Not to mention another youngish Scout (friend of the SPL) that was selected to be our Troop Guide, working with our three new Scouts. He knows his scout skills and was very good at teaching them. Problem was he can be rather mean. He thinks he's being funny, but one of our new Scouts most certainly didn't see it that way.

 

It all came to a head on a camping trip a couple of months ago when the SPL, Troop Guide and another Scout were bullying our newest Scout so badly, calling him names I will not repeat here, that the new Scout pulled out his knife and waved it at them.

 

What a fiasco!

 

The situation was dealt with so I won't go into detail here about the aftermath of that campout, except to say that, of course, the mothers of our two new junior leaders were all up in arms about their sons being threatened by the new Scout and said nothing at all when told about the part their sons played in the whole incident. You know, my son can't do anything wrong kind of thing.

 

It's been six months and I am exhausted dealing with these guys. I've tried to help them. I've tried to teach them. I've tried to come up with different ways to encourage them. I found out just a couple of weeks ago from young SPL that the real reason he ran for the job was because he wanted to show up his friend. Sure wish I'd known that six months ago.

 

So, in the end, after some self-examination, I can say that these past six months have not been any fun. It has been work and I'm disappointed because we had been progressing so well toward our goal of a boy-led Troop. Not saying we can't get back on track and, in fact, I'm grateful for the things I've learned about my own leadership and that of our Scouts.

 

The worst thing to come out of all of this: After these two Scouts actively sought leadership, after their mothers almost demanded it and were very strong advocates for their sons, after going to bat for them and encouraging them, after recommending them for NYLT, they have both just dropped out of NYLT with only one week to go before the beginning of camp. The SPL dropped out because "I don't like leadership, it's too hard, I don't think I want to be in Scouts anymore," and the other because his mother doesn't want him to go by himself.

 

Guess I haven't done a very good job for the past two years with these guys in instilling the value of Trustworthiness and following through on a commitment.

 

Oh well, guess the best I can do is learn from the experience and move on. Summer camp is only four weeks away and it is a week I look forward to all year.

 

[sst3rd]

gwd-scouter,

 

After a 5 month struggle with our new SPL, I had to release him and his ASPL's. His 6 month term started January 1, and he was trained over the Christmas holidays with his ASPL's (he chose them). I also had great expectations. I trained, encouraged, advised, supported, trained more, and had many Scoutmaster Conferences. Goals were set. All of our adult leadership supported this new Staff. But our SPL was more worried about remaining popular at school and Scouts. He yelled, pushed, demanded, bullied, and intimidated his way as SPL. He was not effective. I constantly counseled him. He didn't change.

This situation also came to a head, when we were camping on a US Coast Guard base. We brought bikes to let the Scouts explore all over the base. Of course, there were rules to follow. Most importantly, we were asked to stay off of the sidewalks as they were for pedestrians ONLY. Our SPL took it upon himself to have lots of fun on the sidewalks anyway. His ASPL's were the first to tell me what he was doing. When confronted, he denied it, and then openly screamed how his ASPL's had "ratted", "tattletaled", and "squealed" on him. The "squealing" issue has become a big thing in our Troop. I've tried to explain that when rules are broken that can hurt someone or get the Troop thrown out of a campsite (and never allowed back), it's not squealing. This was basically in front of the whole Troop at our campsite. So, I cooled everyone down, grounded the SPL from further bike rides, sent the other Scouts out riding their bikes, and had an adult leaders meeting. That Saturday night after the campfire, Myself (the SM), our number one ASM, and the Staff, had a meeting. Once again I reviewed our concerns and how they were not being met, and released them from their duties and responsiblities. We then had individual meetings with all three, to encourage their continued Scouting, and discuss their options in the Troop. All three (if they chose to continue in the Troop, as the former SPL stated that he would quit as soon as he got home) were assigned to our Venture Patrol. Other than this big incident, it really had been a great trip. The Patrols weren't really aware of the whole situation.

We haven't had our first meeting after the trip, as we meet on Mondays and don't meet on Memorial Day. But things have been resolved. We have a new Staff, and have already started training. We have great trips and events planned (by the PLC at the Annual Planning Conference each August), and they will proceed. Onward.

Hang in there gwd-scouter. Your challenges sound like our challenges. Be consistant in your execution of the Scouting program, plan a great program, and those Scouts that want it (and there are many really), will be there.

I've finally realized that the word "committment" is not in a teenager's vocabulary.

 

sst3rd

[Venividi]

gwdscouter writes:

Guess I haven't done a very good job for the past two years with these guys in instilling the value of Trustworthiness and following through on a commitment.

 

gwd-scouter - I wouldn't guess that. There are some who take the view that if a scout fails, it is an adult that is to blame. That takes away personal responsibility, and that is not a good thing. You can only plant the seeds and foster the environment. If the scouts decide that they are not ready, that leadership is too much work for them, that they just arent ready yet, that is a lesson learned. Whether they stay in scouts and try leadership again, or whether they stay and be a group member, or even if they leave scouts alltogether, they will have received valuable lessons and skills from you. They may not appear until later in their lives, so unfortunately, instant gratification for scouters isn't always in the cards.

[Stosh]

Failure is an activity, not a person.

 

When we set up our SPL's to fail by giving them 1) responsibilities that aren't supposed to be theirs and 2) authority issues that no one's going to adhere to and 3) it's only a prestige thingy anyway, one is going to find their SPL's burn out long before they get their 6-month term in.

 

1* I know adults who cannot run a full troop. Why would we ever expect a youth to? An SPL in a troop-method program is never going to make it except through the sheer determination of one's charisma. Those kids are few and far between. Otherwise, the kid's heading for a failed situation. He will not have sufficient skills to handle that until he is will into his adult years.

 

2* Older scouts aren't going to listen to the new kid. The only way they will is if they are intimidated first by an adult. When the adult isn't around, well... boys will be boys. Again, the kid is set up in a failure situation.

 

3* As long as the boy toadies up to the SM and is able to get all the boys to listen, it isn't going to work. Here success is dependent on how well the boy is popular with his buddies. If he has to make an unpopular decision because the SM told him he had to, then he's sunk. Not many people can ride the 6-months without having to make such choices. Again, the success/failure is not in the boy's control.

 

Being able to read a map and compass, knowing how to do first aid, and tying knots are not prerequisites for good leadership, so merely being First Class is a bogus requirement.

 

Being the oldest boy in the troop gives the SPL somewhat of an advantage. If not, all bets are off. So age could be a consideration as long as it is relative to being the oldest in the troop.

 

Remember a boy that fails in front of his peers may indeed find it a lot easier to tolerate if they quit the organization that put them in that situation.

 

Stosh

[Kudu]

gwd-scouter writes:

 

So, in the end, after some self-examination, I can say that these past six months have not been any fun. It has been work and I'm disappointed because we had been progressing so well toward our goal of a boy-led Troop.

 

Guess I haven't done a very good job for the past two years with these guys in instilling the value of Trustworthiness and following through on a commitment.

 

It is not your fault, nor the Scouts' fault either. This is not a "values" issue.

 

The original purpose of SPL was to chair PLC meetings, and then help coordinate the Patrols according to the Patrol Leaders' plans. That is why in Green Bar Bill's Traditional BSA Patrol Method, the Patrol Leaders select the SPL!

 

In Baden-Powell's Patrol System the SPL is optional.

 

So you could just take a break from the Troop Method and let your Patrol Leaders run things for a while.

 

One possibility is to have the Patrols to take turns as "Service Patrol" (setting up Troop equipment, opening and closing the meeting, and then putting things away); and "Program Patrol" (setting up the program materials, coming up with the game, providing entertainment, and assisting guests) with the Patrol Leader of the Program Patrol serving as SPL.

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[gwd-scouter]

Thanks all for your comments:

 

Some good news. The two boys I mentioned that at the last minute dropped out of NYLT: the one boy whose mother didn't want him to go by himself is going after all. Talked to him and his mother last Monday and she confided in me that while she was nervous for him to be going by himself, she realized that pulling him out at the last minute would not help him learn to follow through on his commitments. So, he leaves today for NYLT. I think he will enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

 

Got a call from the other Scout's mom. Said that he is still not going to NYLT or summer camp, but he has reconsidered dropping out of Scouts.

 

Maybe both of those Scouts (and their moms) have been influenced by Scouting, maybe even by me. Don't know, but I have gotten over the idea that I have to "fall on my sword" every time something negative happens in our Troop. Well, at least for now.

 

sst3rd writes: "I've finally realized that the word "committment" is not in a teenager's vocabulary."

 

I'm not ready to give in to that yet. I've seen quite a few teenagers over the years that follow through on their commitments. In our case with this young SPL and our struggles these past six months, he did try early on. Unfortunately, he just wasn't mature enough to see beyond his own interests.

 

EagleDad: "After several years, we figured out boys 13 and under do not like leadership because it takes them out of their comfort zone by taking them away from their friends (gang). We also learned that boys 13 and under learn the most about leadership and character by watching boys 14 and older lead. Scouting is a game and that translates to fun. Why make a boy do something that isn't fun when it fails in performance anyways?"

 

We(I) sure learned that this past six months. It seems our small troop will always be going through growing pains. Haven't given up on the vision though - we get a bit closer, take a step backwards, move forward again.

 

Even though we only have 10 Scouts and even though we went through a difficult past six months, all of our Scouts continue to show up each week for meetings, almost all of them are going to summer camp, and one guy just brought a couple of inactive Scouts from another Troop to our meeting last week to check us out.

 

Did an Eagle Scout SM Conference last week. Young man is about to turn 18 and has been in our Troop since he crossed over from Webelos. He talked about why he became inactive for a couple of years because Scouts became boring, but then got excited again when he saw how the Troop was changing and the adults were stepping back to let the boys run the show.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that just when I begin to despair over something happening in our Troop, something comes along to revive my spirits.