Signs UP!

[Kudu]

I tried to convince our most gifted Patrol Leader that Patrol Leaders are more important than Senior Patrol Leaders, but he was having none of that.

 

So now he is SPL and I must admit that from this leadership position he has done more through his example to strengthen the Patrols than I have ever seen an SPL do before.

 

Despite his talent, working the Scout sign for silence with 13 new Scouts has been a challenge. For the first couple of meetings with a bunch of new Scouts we consider it OK to yell "Signs UP!" but the time for this has passed. A couple of times at the last meeting when a silent "Signs Up!" failed to work, one of the senior Scouts said "Well maybe Ranger Rick can explain Signs Up to us."

 

Everybody groans and this is my cue to say in exactly the same words as before that:

 

a) The Sign applies to everyone including the adults;

 

b) The person who raises the Sign is obligated to hold it up until everyone is silent with the Sign above his head on a fully extended arm;

 

c) When the sign is lowered we remain silent until the person is done talking;

 

d) The Sign means to be quiet right away, not to hold it up above your head "to show that you are in general agreement with the principle, but to continue talking because you are in the middle of a really important conversation!"

 

That final statement always amuses the senior Scouts no matter how many times I repeat it but, frankly, humor isn't working. At the last meeting I lost my patience with waiting for everyone to acknowledge the Sign after the ASPL raised it. I exploded in anger and said to a stunned group that respecting the Sign when a senior Scout raises it is the key a boy-run Troop.

 

Ugh.

 

Before the next meeting I plan to address the senior Scouts, impress upon them the importance of the Sign, and formerly hand off responsibility for enforcing Signs Up to the SPL with the recommendation that we all follow his example.

 

So given that this is a near-perfect situation (none of the senior Scouts are cynical, and although some of the new rough-and-tumble Scouts are prone to pushing and shoving, none of them are a real discipline problem) I am looking for any advice to pass on to to the SPL.

 

Kudu

 

[Beavah]

Yah, fine words are nice and all, but what's da consequence?

 

I suppose Mr. Kudu gettin' all angry can be a consequence that wakes lads up for a bit, especially if that's a rare thing. If it's a frequent thing, that might be entertainin' .

 

More likely, an appropriate consequence for takin' everyone's time and slowing down the meeting with gab is that some cool thing they were looking forward to in the meeting doesn't happen... and they're all told in crystal clear terms why. Maybe instead of doing a fun game they have to do 10 minutes of "sign practice" until they get it right?

 

It's the consequence that empowers the youth leaders and the "good kids" to do their own enforcement and actually be listened to. Otherwise it's just people yappin', and that can be ignored.

 

Speakin' of which, anybody watching da CBS "Kid Nation" show? Kinda artificial, but kinda interesting. One young brat of a girl has been avoidin' doing any chores for weeks now, and all the other kids are frustrated. Dozens of "talks." More recently a few "punishments" that she ignores just like the chores.

 

Kids haven't woken up yet to da consequences they control. "If you're assigned to cook, and you don't cook so that someone else has to, they don't cook food for you and you don't eat."

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Kids haven't woken up yet to da consequences they control. "If you're assigned to cook, and you don't cook so that someone else has to, they don't cook food for you and you don't eat."

 

My goodness! Let a child go hungry? That's horrible. We can't expect children to do things that they don't want to do and it is barbaric to punish them for that. :-p

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

To get the sign to work, you have to be consistent. The sign goes up, the mouth goes shut and thats it. The originator cannot hold up a sign and continue to talk. He puts it up and leaves it up until there is silence. Whatever noise level exists when he starts to talk, will only stay present or increase. Wait until the noise level is zero and then talk. If noise develops, the sign goes back up. Each person has to decide for themselves how quiet they want to make it.

 

I know many scouts and adults as well, hate to keep putting up the sign but thats the key. It may make for a long meeting, but if the SPL starts out with an attitude of I am going to do this and keeps at it, it works. You just keep doing it. Like I said, the originator has to be quiet and the boy and adult leadership have to be silent as well as the younger scouts will follow what they see

[SSScout]

Scout Sign means: a Scout leader holds up HIS sign and the next Scout passes the "word" along by holding HIS Scout Sign until all Scouts have their Scout Sign up and are listening.

 

When I work the CSDC, I hold the SS up and look at my watch. When all are quiet I announce "35 seconds (or what ever time elapsed). Let's try it again. LET"S HEAR SOME NOISE!!!" SS up again. " 22 seconds. Getting better." And each time I SS, I announce the time. It slowly improves.

 

I sometimes mention my experience at the National Jamboree, at the big amphitheater, where we have 50,000 plus Scouts in one place. The Scout on the Stage shows his SS and within 15 or 20 seconds, all have the SS up and all are paying attention. 'Wow' moment.

 

Yes, the SPL must be willing to set the example and not give way to the mob. Each PL must also agree and insist their patrol follow suit.

An ASM can educate the other parents in attendance, or perhaps take them to the 'Rocking Chair Patrol Room'.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

The only wisdom I gave about the sign was to our PLC. I told them group respect is a team accomplishment. When one member of the PLC puts their sign up, the rest of the PLC follows in support of the team and encourages those around them as well.

 

I also agree with Beavah that consequences of performance change behavior. Our PLC improved a lot things (including starting on time) when the meetings were running long and all the complaints were sent to the SPL. Most of the complaints came from the parents tired of waiting outside in their car.

 

In our troop, the adult never puts his sign up first. When they need the attention the group, the adult ask the senior scout in the group to get the attention. That may seem like a simple thing, but the boys sure like the respect that is implied by the act.

 

Barry

 

[mdutch]

Our troop was having this problem at one point. So I decided to time how long we wasted at meetings waiting for people to be quiet. An announcement that I held my SS up for 22 minutes during a 90 minute scout meeting, certainly got lots of people's attention.

I think the best way to approach it is to make sure all the adults and PLC members quiet down right away, and then the younger scouts will usually follow suit.

[CalicoPenn]

I'd like to issue a challenge and encourage the end of the ubiquitous use of "Signs Up" (though full well knowing I'll be tilting at windmills like Don Quixote as I do so).

 

My Troop never used "Signs Up" and even though we learned what it meant when invloved with gatherings of other units (or as most of us learned it, in Cub Scouts), we never responded with a raised sign, though we would respect the intent. Here's why:

 

Our Troop taught that the Scout Sign means something - it is not just an empty gesture but had a real symbolic meaning. The three fingers of the Scout Sign each individually represented an important keystone of Scouting.

 

Finger 1: "On my honor I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my Country and to Obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight"

 

Finger 2: "A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent"

 

Finger 3: "Do a Good Turn Daily"

 

The Scout Sign represents the combined strength of the keystones of the Scout Oath, the Scout Law and the Scout Slogan. We were taught to use it as its intended - to show that we are Scouts and to show that we believe in and follow the keystones. We were taught that the proper display of the Scout Sign is with the upper arm held out at a 90 degree angle from the body with the forearm held up at a 90 degree angle from the upper arm, ending with the hand in a sharp Scout Sign. Thrusting the sign into the air as if signalling some kind of end zone victory or trying to get permission to go to the bathroom was, in our Troop, declasse and disrespectful of the sign.

 

The opinion of our Troop's leaders, one that has stayed with me and that I fully share, is that using the Scout Sign as a "Signs Up" debases the Scout Sign, and the meaning behind it. Indeed, how many of the Scouts now look at the Scout Sign not as a symbol of the keystones but as a symbol that tells them to just "Shut Up"? Is that what we want the Scout Sign to mean? Shut Up? I hope not.

 

My Troop didn't use a Scout Sign to request that attention be paid. We used a "talking stick". Most of us are aware of the concept, an honored stick which when held by a person in a circle or group directs the groups attention to the person speaking. The person holding the stick has the floor, the rest listen attentively. If someone else wishes to speak, he would respectfully request to hold the talking stick while he says his piece. Our SPL or ASPL or SM or whomever needed the attention of the Troop would stand quietly at the front of the meeting room holding the talking stick in front of him (it has to be obvious that the speaker desires the attention of the group - idly holding it at ones side is interpreted as meaning he will be asking for our attention at some point soon but is not yet ready to do so)and would look around at the people gathered to catch the eyes of at least the PL's if not the whole group. The use of the talking stick was, to us at least, a more dignified and respectful way of gaining one's attention - it didn't just say to us "Quiet Down" - it said to us "I've got something important to tell you, please listen up" - it turned us into active listeners.

 

I think it also helped make us better speakers and better instructors. If a Scout was giving a skills presentation to the Troop, that Scout would have the talking stick - he may not be holding it, but the stick was in his posession. Too often I've seen presentations interupted every couple of minutes or so by a "Signs Up" to refocus the lads. We learned pretty quickly that if we had to refocus the Troop throughout out presentation, we had to work on our presentation skills - make them more interesting. As we got older of course, even though we may have sat through a similar presentation numerous times, we were charged with leading by example to teach respect for the talking stick and were capable of keeping our attention on the speaker. It was very rare in our Troop for any one to have to refocus the Troop (or a Patrol) if they had the talking stick.

 

My challenge to you is to end the use of "Signs Up". Create a talking stick. We ended up with a version of a Coup Stick - and each year, every patrol that formed or re-formed would add a little bit to the stick - a feather, a bead on a strap of leather (it had to stay in keeping with the "theme" of a coup stick - for instance, no patrol patch with a hole cut into it on a ribbon - it had to be natural - beads, leathers, turkey feathers, etc. were kept in a small box by the Quatermaster). The patrols name and the year might be written on it somewhere - but didn't have to be - the important thing was the Patrol made it, even a simple feather, a special part of the Talking Stick and it symbolically bound us to the Talking Stick. Or create your own new tradition.

 

If it starts in your troops, it can follow to other troops - epecially as your leaders join district training staffs where they can implement such a strategy and teach others how you do it. In this way, we can quietly restore the dignity that the Scout Sign should have.

 

Prepare a speech for your Scouts (and others) when announcing the change. Get the PLC's buy in and have the SPL deliver it - while holding the new Talking Stick - perhaps slightly "decorated" at first should you go the add on route throughout the years. I would start by telling the Scouts what the Scout Sign symbolizes - raising one finger at a time while reciting the Scout Oath, Scout Law and Scout Slogan until all three fingers of the Scout Sign is raised. I would talk about the power of the Scout Sign and how it represents the three keystones coming together. I would talk about how using it as a "Signs Up" changes the important meaning of the Scout Sign and removes it's dignity. Then I would introduce the concept of the Talking Stick. It will take time, and may not be easy, but I believe you will see an interesting change.

 

That's my challenge to all - end the use of "Signs Up".

 

Calico

[Eagledad]

I like the idea and reasoning behind it Calico. How much shift-of-mind is there outside the troop environment like OA or JLTC?

 

Barry

[Gunny2862]

Calico, nice use of your method! :)

 

However, my question to you is how would a large jamboree crowd know what the stick was unless everyone used it? What about sticks of different designs - does this stick mean anything where that one is just an affectation of that leader? Personally I love some kind of swagger stick to avoid bad public speaking hand positions. Finally how is your method different when you clearly set goals and expectations and teach what is happening when "this"symbol is held up or shown?

 

This is why I prefer the Scout sign, it is ubiquitous and is with you wherever you happen to be. All (or some percentage greater then 95% of)Scouts already have one. And it may not be obeyed by all but it is generally recognized for its meaning by all.

[Gold Winger]

First. The scout sign is not with the arm and hand extended above the head, that's something else. the scout sign is with the upper arm parallel to the floor and the forearm straight up.

 

Secnd. Never yell "signs up" just put it up and wait.

[Kudu]

CalicoPenn,

 

I accept your challenge!

 

Where did you hear that the three fingers of the Scout Sign stand for the Oath, Law, and Slogan? Is this some new BSA revision in the tradition of "1. Duty to God & County (and presumably cram Scout Law in there); 2. Duty to Others; 3. Duty to Self"?

 

If we were "taught to use the Scout Sign as it was intended" by its inventor, Baden-Powell, it would stand for the three points of B-P's Scout Promise, which by the way are actually:

 

1) To do my duty to God, [and my country].

2) To help other people at all times.

3) To obey the Scout Law.

 

"Signs UP" indicates that what we are going to say furthers the Three Points.

 

Kudu

[Gunny2862]

GW, I agree with your body position interpretation of signs up.

 

And any Signs up yells are not given by the originator but if done at all are by the Scouts to get the attention of anyone who won't /hasn't realized that everyone else has gotten quiet.

 

Kudu, is your bolded text in the first paragraph copyrighted or anything?

[Gold Winger]

""Signs UP" indicates that what we are going to say furthers the Three Points."

 

Okay, yeah, sure. How about the announcement that tree fell on the blue car in the parking lot? Okay, that could be duty to others. How about "no ones turned in their permisiion slips for the ski trip"?

[Kudu]

Gunny2862 writes:

 

"Kudu, is your bolded text in the first paragraph copyrighted or anything?"

 

No but if you are going to use it, I should polish it up a bit for you first. Point d is just Kudu humor.

 

Gold Winger writes:

 

"Okay, yeah, sure...How about 'no ones turned in their permission slips for the ski trip'?"

 

I would put that in the "Help other people at all times" area of facilitating the Outdoor Method. Of course Scout Law also covers a lot of territory in delivering and receiving any Scouting message: A Scout is Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, and hopefully Cheerful.

 

Kudu