Young SPL

[Eagle309]

We have a young Troop (11-13 year olds) with a 13 year old Life Scout SPL. Boys seem to not be willing to listen to him (nor any other youth leader).This is despite numerous talks from me that they should listen to youth leaders as if they were adults. Any advise I can give him.

[Beavah]

Yah, Eagle309. It''s tough bein'' a young SPL.

 

But da problem is you giving talks. We give talks to explain or inspire.

 

For misbehavior, we give consequences.

 

You make space for your SPL to lead by being the "bad guy" and setting expectations and consequences. That way your young leader can be the "good guy" they turn to to help them meet expectations and have fun.

 

No talks. Fail to listen to da SPL, bad happens. Nuthin'' personal, just the way it is.

 

Think about it like a video game. Kids are great at learning not to feed the dragon if every time they feed the dragon they lose points. No need to be talked to. But you could talk to ''em all day about not feeding the dragon, and they''d keep doing it if it got ''em points or didn''t hurt.

 

Beavah

 

[EagleInKY]

It''s a tough time to get through, but it''s worth it. I was there a couple of years ago. To get through it, you really need to coach the SPL on what to say and do. Of course, as I found out with one of ours, the SPL has to be willing to listen and act on that coaching. When he doesn''t there''s little you can do.

 

The number one thing you can do is totally back-up and support your SPL. That means that even when he makes some decisions that you wouldn''t make, you support him wholeheartedly. When he messes up, use it as a coaching moment. But always try to do so privately. When the scouts learn that even you follow the SPL''s direction, they''ll learn to follow as well.

[MarkS]

To extrapolate on what Beavah said, you have the scout spirit requirement for advancement to use as your consequence. Just be sure to work the SMC to get the boy to admit to you that not supporting youth leadership goes against scout spirit before telling him that if he is successful working on it for a couple months, then you''ll sign off on the scout spirit requirement.

[Eagledad]

Beavah and EagleInKy just gave two excellent replies. Your scouts have been raised all their life to do what adults ask of them. They dont have experience with doing what the other boys tell them to do. That is new and it has to developed. As Beavah points out, they need to be motivated to respect their SPL. You cant just tell them to respect the SPL.

 

EagleInKy makes an excellent point to always support your SPL. This is very important. He is the boss, you are only his advisor. The other scouts have to see that you also respect his authority. When you need to talk and advice, do it in private. To emphasis the important of giving the scout leaders respect, the adults are trained to never put up their sign first. The youth leaders must get control of their scouts. IF we adults need control of the scouts to talk about something, we asked the youth leader in the room to get control of the scouts for us because they are the leader. That also reminds the adults how to maintain respect even though there are going to be those days they dont deserve much.

 

One other thing about this. IT is easy to get frustrated with scouts on these kinds of things, but it is not a scout problem. IT is an adult problem. You just havent figured how to deal with it yet. We all went through it or are going through it because no adult knows how to be a perfect scout leader first time. You will learn how to work and with this problem and be better prepared for it the next time.

 

That you are asking these questions is proof that you are already a pretty good leader. I look forward to reading future stories of how your troop matures.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[insanescouter]

I have read studies that explain things like this...

 

The brain can not process a negative. I want you to try this "Don''t think about ice cream." What happened? Did you see ice cream cone, or a bowl of ice cream in you mind, before you could not think about it?

 

You have to think about a negative before you can not think about it. (how well this works on everyone I do not know, it comes from a business audio book I have been listening too)

 

I like to ask new leaders if they know the differences between kings, guides and followers. The short answer is ... Kings are the big boss, the iron fist ruler do it my way or off with your head... the Guide is the one that gentle shows some one the way and kind of almost in a sneaky way teaches them to fish so the guide doesn''t have to do it all the time... and followers ... followers are the ones who well follows the leadership, but a leader is not always a leader there are times when the leader needs to step aside and become a follower...

 

The key to controlling the Troop is "control through activity", keep them so busy and having so much fun that they don''t know that they are working on something... if they have time to tie there shoes there is to much free time ... also make sure everything is positive.

 

Don''t forget the adage ... Praise in public and punish in private ...

 

Ok I am kind of rambling off topic sort of, but I think you get the point ... and I hope my wacky ramblings have been of some help...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[Stosh]

Most leadership styles today aren''t what works in an individualistic society such as ours. People will not follow someone who isn''t looking out for their welfare. The PL handbook references this with phenomina as "servant leadership" and it does work. Leaders that boss others around to get a task done rarely evoke a happy follower. But a leader who is perceived as working for the welfare of their followers will always get whatever help they need.

 

Lead by example always is better than lead by demand. Adult leaders automatically invoke sufficient fear that whatever they ask gets done. A youth leader can never pull it off, so don''t expect the other boys to follow along as if their word were the same as an adult''s. They aren''t.

 

I need some help with the dining fly, Eagle patrol, can you came and help me get this up? (lead by example). Bear patrol, you don''t seem to have your meal started, is there something wrong? Do you need some help? (servant leadership) Owl patrol, the new boys are having trouble getting their tents up, would you be so kind as to help them? (teaching "lead by example" and "servant leadership" to others)

 

Direct commands don''t work for 13-year olds, don''t expect them to master that until they are, say 21-25 years old. :^)

 

Leadership skills are teachable and easy to use. A young SPL has a great opportunity to get in on the ground floor if taught correctly.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Excellent post Jblake. I applaud everything you said and wish we talked about servant leadership more, even in our training.

 

I disagree on one point. After working with our older scouts in our troop, the council JLTC and the OA, I believe the ages these young men are mature enough for direct commands is closer to 16 and 17. The problem I found is that even at those ages, most adults still don''t see them or trust them as adults. WE just don''t give them enough opportunites to allow them to show their abilities. But give them the environment, they prove themselves very well.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

I find that if a boy is trained in servant/lead by example leadership they have no need to lead by intimidation/direct command. While it may work once or twice, as soon as a boy gains the reputation of bossing or bullying, they have to start over earning the follower''s trust. They may be able to pull off direct commands at 16/17, but why when they are not necessary.

[Eagledad]

>>I find that if a boy is trained in servant/lead by example leadership they have no need to lead by intimidation/direct command. While it may work once or twice, as soon as a boy gains the reputation of bossing or bullying, they have to start over earning the follower''''s trust.

[Joni4TA]

Our newly elected SPL is "young" in Rank and Experience - In age, he is 16. It's hard for a seasoned parent/adult to settle and effect focus in a group of adolescent boys successfully, let alone a 16yr old peer.

 

The things I have found to be most useful in our case, is to provide the SPL with enough tools, resources, and encouragement as I can so he can effectively and confidently be the SPL. And then as an adult leader, back him up with the support of discipline if and when behavior issues come up.

 

Our new SPL is only a First Class Scout. We have 2 Eagles, 3 Life, and 2 Star Scouts that outrank him, and about 8 active Scouts that don't. So he sits right in the middle of the Spectrum as far as experience goes. Plus, he's never been in a leadership role, has an overwhelmed feeling, and isn't as strong in personality and assertiveness as some of the higher-ranking boys.

 

We can't afford to send all elected leaders to Cedar Badge or the more formal NJLIC, YSDC or NYLT because frankly it's not offered often enough locally or regionally, and it's too darn expensive to send them to Philmont. We have a VERY humble Troop. So there's always the old faithful Scoutmaster's JLT. A few years back I converted a bunch of copies of the JLT video for my former Council from VHS to DVD. And I made a copy for my own personal library. OK, It's a little outdated - but at least it's readily available for me. Obviously you can tailor the activities and discussion around modern times. But I think it's important to have SOMETHING to offer new junior leaders. They genuinely want some guidance I've found.

 

Other things our SPL has told me were useful - PAPERWORK - Duty Rosters, Troop Meeting plans, the support of the forms that come from our Troopmaster software. Anything that makes it easier for him to stay organized and to PLAN AHEAD! Our SPL is new at this, but he has some outstanding organizational skills and understands the importance of an agenda - to come to a meeting with a plan on paper, to go on a camping trip with a duty roster that's posted on a clipboard, tree or table. This way everyone else knows what they are responsible for and there's no constant badgering of the other boys to get their job done or please do this or please do that - it's all planned and posted. This makes it easier for the SPL to delegate ONCE - and then if the boys have any questions, he can refer them to the PLAN!

 

Before I introduced some of the paperwork to him, he was TRYING to delegate stuff on campouts and meetings, but the other boys were not cooperating very well, and he kept saying how it was easier to just not get confrontational with them or repeat himself a thousand times and do the tasks HIMSELF! The duty roster he found especially useful because he said it felt like it was a "final word" so to speak - nothing left for argument. There was less chaos involved, and even the adults knew what was going on so we could more effectively support him if we needed to.

 

So far, this is where we are at in our Troop. It's baby steps, and always a work in progress, but this is what seems to be working for us.

[Gold Winger]

Call me a cynic (Okay, you're a cynic) but I don't think that many youth today want to lead or understand that there is a need to follow direction from the person in charge.

 

Some come from the fact that parents have taken too much responsibility for their kids' activities. Johnny doesn't have to figure out how to deliver his papers and get to baseball practice because dad will take care of it.

 

Also all to often there are no consequences in a young persons life. Get the grass cut or you don't go to baseball? Not any more. I'll cut the grass while you're at baseball. Didn't get the project done? I'll stay up till 4 AM building your science project because getting a bad grade is out of the question.

 

In olden days we'd pick two captains for our pick-up games. Usually they were the older boys or boys with baseball savvy. After they picked their teams, they'd assign positions based on their experience. We might not like playing right field but we went because that's where we were sent. Now no one plays pick-up games, the coach decides where everyone plays and if your father doesn't like where you are playing, he argues witht the coach.

 

How does this relate to Scouting? I don't like setting up tents, why should I? There's no consequences. You can't possibly say, "if you don't help with the tents, you don't get to sleep in one." That would bring down the wrath of the parents.

 

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I'll ramble on.

 

A good leader has willing followers. A willing follower understands that things have to get done and does their part. Unfortunately, too many of todays youth have grown up with the idea that if they don't do something someone will bail them out.

 

How do we solve it? Stop bailing them out. If they don't pitch their tents, let them sleep outside . . . in the rain. If they don't want to cook, let them go hungry.

[MandalorianScouter]

Indeed! A scout is obedient. If not, then they don't fulfill the scout spirit requirement...

[Bob White]

Jblake is right on track with the style and methods of leadership taught in the BSA program. I am curious Eagle 309, when you say the the Scouts won't listen to the SPL, can you give an example of what he is saying and who is he saying it to?

 

Good cop/bad cop is a TV show cliche not a method of leadership, and certainly not anything ever taught in Scouting.

 

Of course most young people today do not know how to lead, that is why the scoutmaster is charged with coaching and mentoring junior leaders. Training, trusting, and providing real leadership opportunities is to youth is what separates Scouting from other youth activities.

 

Teaching scouts they will be punished if they do not do as they are told is not how you develop leadership, it is how you train dictators.

 

As far as what to suggest to him, let me first ask what leadership training have you and the SPL experienced so far?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh]

If it is patrol-method, the SPL is the #1 cheerleader for the PLC. He gets out in front and ... well, leads! He supports the PL's efforts and is the first to make it happen for others.

 

On the other hand if it is troop-method the SPL is the #1 director, the "HE WHO MUST BE OBEYED", and he stands behind everyone and pushes. I don't think pushing is in a leading position to be.

 

The boys need to lead, not push if they are going to be a truly effective leader.

 

I guess it just depends on whether a person's style is to inspire (lead) or direct(push).

 

Stosh