Eating as a Troop

[PeteM]

>>>>Have a competition to see which patrol can cook, eat, and clean up the quickest.

[Eagledad]

>>This Troop is large (~80 scouts).

PLC decides the menu for the whole troop.

The Troop has a Gubmaster that is in charge of buying the food for the whole Troop.

Duty roster is done by the PLC, on a patrol basis, with things like cooking assigned to a whole patrol or multiple patrols, same with other duties on Troop activities.

[CNYScouter]

I see this thread has resurfaced.

 

I want to add that this is the only Troop that I have run into so far that doesn''t create Patrols for every campout.

 

I just think that keeping the patrol intact, and assigning kitchen duties by patrol, is more important than having a bunch of small groups that operate independently.

 

Most groups that I have talked with that eat as a Troop just assign a few Scouts to cook for everyone and not even consider.

 

The SM has said to me that he know this isnt the optimal way of doing things but it does allow them to keep food costs down and does keep the patrol together and working as a unit.

 

 

[highcountry]

In the early seventies my troop (Large, about 75 scouts with 50 very active) cooked and ate as a troop. Scouts who needed road to first class cooking requirements were in charge of things needed to obtain those requirements.

When I took overe as Sm of our troop a year ago it was troop cook and eat as a troop. I see nothing wrong with it. Again, as our troop instructor sees a couple younger scouts in need of road to first class cooking requirements we see to it they fulfil the cooking, planning, nutrition, cleanup requirements and they do them before tehy are signed off. They may end up cooking for 15 instead of 5 but the requirements are still met.

having 4 different sets of menu plans and grocerey lists and trying to get the patrols out to shop plust all of the independent reciepts to the treasurer is not going to happen. maybe the BSA guidelines say this is what to be done, but it isn''t going to happen in the real world for us. On a normal campout where we have no scouters working road to first class cooking requiremens, each patrol cooks one element of the meal (One does the salad, one does the stew, one the dessert adn the other covers drinks and bread). They all cook as a patrol but contribute to teh overall meal. They are all buddies in teh troop and sit down and eat together.

 

The boys decide the menu plan and plan the shopping list. The ASM in charge of the event does the shopping and sends teh bill to the treasurer for reimbursement. ASSM packs the coolers and we go.

 

Right now we are preparing for a campout at the end of the month, about 15 scouts and 5 qadults going. I have requested at 2 troop meetings as has the SPL to get together and plan the menu and grocery list, no reponse. I have sent out emails and not one response. If I had this as a true patrol method situation with each patrol planning and shopping independently this problem would be multiplied 4 fold. I have no new scouters on this event requiring road to first class cooking requirements. The goal is to get a good meal plan that everyone agrees on, shop and have the patrols take responsibility for preparing their part of each of the meals. Accomplishing this is provving hard enough. It has resulted in a number of phone calls and voicemails and those who repond are making the decision for all teh rest.....the lesson....if they don''t respond and they don''t like the menu than tough. next time stick around at teh troop meeting to plan or at least respond to email. There is no way on god''s green earth I am going to deal with this having 4 seperate patrols plan 4 totally independant menus and grocery lists and expect tehm to shop independantly. If I expected that and tried to make it happen teh troop would drop to almost no activity and eventually die. A man''s got to know his limitations and sticking to strict BSA patrrol meal guidelines is not going to happen in our world. My realistic choice is to demand we stick to strict patrol methods on this and end up with cancelled activities and eventual shrinking of the troop or adapt with a smart workable plan, grow the troop and increase teh number and general quality of activites. It works for us.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm... OK, highcountry. Welcome to da forums, eh?

 

Might I suggest as you continue your scouting journey that you pick up some reading on the Patrol Method from such renowned Scouting Leaders as Green Bar Bill Hillcourt?

 

The shortcomings of the whole-troop method you describe are pretty much the shortcomings you describe . It's a lot of adult level work and coordination that takes up your time and the kids'. I've been in and seen troops where the SM doesn''t worry a single neuron about campout meals, because that's the job of the Patrol Leaders. Yah, and da Patrol Leader knows it's his job, and it's really not a big job that requires a lot of prior coordination, so he gets it done on his own. Easily.

 

In the process, the PL learns responsibility and leadership, and the patrol members see responsibility and leadership in a youth. Work becomes cool, teamwork becomes normal, and cooking is not a chore.

 

You're workin' way too hard, mate. Scoutin' is more fun than that.

 

Beavah

 

(edited to kill the double quotes...)(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter]

Respectfully, it could possibly be that the problem you''re having with troop level meal planing is that there is no boy responsible for to make this happen. In a patrol, the PL works with his small group of 6-8 boys, not the entire troop. The task is smaller and agreement comes easier. The patrol method is a proven system and works if the adult leadership supports it. In the grand scheme of the Scouting program, the number of receipts the treasurer must reimburse seems trivial, but I could be wrong.

[Venividi]

Expect resistance from scouts at first. Perhaps for several months. Some may even drop out. Because to them, a change from troop meal planning and cooking with ASM doing the shopping, IS more work for them. The challenge is how to change, and how to counter the resistance that will be received from both scouts and parents. Because this is really about changing culture. About setting and communicating new expectations, and then being tested by the scouts as to whether the new expectations are real. And listening to complaints from parents about the problems they had with taking their son to the store so he could grocery shop. And the "I told you so''s" from parents when things don''t go smoothly the first month. Or the second.

 

Adults have to buy in to wanting to change, or it wont happen because culture change is not easy. But in the long run you are better off, because once the culture starts to shift, it becomes less work, because the scouts start to do what they are supposed to do.

 

Similar problems are having a committee that doesn''t provide the logistical support they are supposed to, leaving SM/ASM''s to do all the work. In the short run, it is easier to do it yourself, but what is really happening is that people are being trained that they dont have to.

[anarchist]

Highcountry,

 

WOW

 

no offense, but the organization you belong to sounds like Baby Siters of America to me...not the Boy Scouts.

 

you have my heart felt condolences...really.

 

You keep spoon feeding them and what is the motivation for them to grow? or learn? or do for themselves?...IMHO, you are simply implementing play dates for boys...not fostering leadership, independence, or character...certainly not scouting events.

 

was that over the top...I can never tell, but what do I know...

 

anarchist

[highcountry]

As I mentioned here or elsewhere, the previous scoutmaster arranged maybe one troop campout a year. All other campouts were either summer camp or district events. Camping 10 or 11 times a year is a big change so we are adapting. I think we will always use the troop/patrol cooking plan like I described but I do realize teh boys need to be more engaged and pounding my fist is a waster of my energy. We have a 2 night "Hallowween campout coming end of October and between then and now is our next Greenbar where I am going to make a big deal about reliability, communication, responsibility and doing one''s job as a patrol leader etc....job descriptions and what leadership means. Then I am going to ask the SPL one time and one time only to set up the activities and menu for that event. I expect him to know to do it without my asking but I will be fair and drop one little hint. If nothing occurs then I plan to show up with peanut butter, jam, milk and plain white bread for the entire campout while the adult leaders have steak. That should get the message across. My plan for the November camp and hike event is to not even remind the SPL to see he does this entirely onhis own. If that doesn''t work the scouts are going to get extremely tired of peanut butter and wonder bread in coming months and our steaks are going to look especially tasty. If they haven''t learned by Klondike in late january they can watch us enjoy lobsters.

[Beavah]

Yah... Hmmmmmm....

 

So, highcountry, as an idea, if yer goin'' to spend all that effort with peanut butter and such, why not jump to real Patrol Cooking? Seems like what you''re doin'' would be even more effective when one PL got the hint and had good food goin'' and the others were doing PB. Then the next campout maybe two patrols are cookin'' different things and comparing and bragging to each other about what they did, and presto - instant ongoing contest, patrol spirit, no need for adults to compare with because they have each other, etc. You know... Scouting!

 

Now, having said that, yeh can''t go there unless you really know the SPL or the PL''s actually know how to plan meals, and the kids actually know how to cook. There''s probably a good chance that they just got one of them quick pencil signoffs rather than actually learnin'' the skill, eh? So before you go all Peanut Butter crazy, it''s your job to figure out if they really know how. If not, then it''s your job at your PLC/GreenBar sessions to teach ''em how. Help ''em with meal planning. Coach ''em. Give ''em ideas. That''s Scouting too... the SM trains the Patrol Leaders, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[anarchist]

yeah, what beavah said...

 

like all children who have been over-protected and spoon fed...they are really clueless...they talk a good game and that''s about it...execution is a total loss. I was working with a NSP once at the local grub store and witnessed an ASM who had taken over an (up-until-then) spoon-fed patrol...he would not lift a finger until they got to the check-out...which they did in record time...At which point this ASM (who was an experienced restauranteur) would ask a single question which was designed to make the scouts think about the meals they were cooking and "discover" they had forgotten something. The man did this time and time again...and spent over two hours "helping" the grub master and shopping crew with groceries...Our NSP worked through their shopping (it was their second or third camping trip and did pretty well.

 

When we left the store, the older scouts were still grasping for supplies...but he was not going to spoon feed them...And after two or three more camping trips they actually started catching on... Was it a semming waste of time?...yes, Could he have saved time by making a better list or doing it himself?...again yes! But if he had continued where their old "mentor" had left off they would never have learned a thing.

 

We all need to understand that it is almost a given that when these boys are tasked with a new or different skill they will need to be walked through it again and, perhaps, yet again. It will be time consuming...maddeningly so at times...the great temptation is the same as we see Troop guides grapple with every campout..."it is easier, and faster just to do it for them (NSPs)". But part of why we are paid the big bucks is to show the dedication to "waste" the time necessary directing and coaching then in how things are done...rather than doing it for them!

 

As a great SM once told me somewhat tongue in cheek; "Scouting would be so much easier without the scouts...(and their parents), but it would be so much less fulfilling and rewarding!"

 

Take the time to teach the "tree" to grow straight and strong! The investment in "timber" (and mankind) is worth the effort.

 

Anarchist

[highcountry]

Thanks for the advice/ideas but unless we have scouts working towards road to first class cooking requirements we are probably going to stick with the patrol/troop cooking method. As I noted in the early seventies my troop simply cooked as a troop, at least we have each patrol planning and cooking one part of the meal and contributing to the entire meal. I am having enough of a hard time getting any input at all from the boys on any menu ideas let alone nutrition and working up a grocery list, but everything does take time and this is eveolving. Yes these are typical kids, spoon fed with parents taking the bumps out of the road for them, they have already learned from parents that reading agendas, staying for meetings and returning voicemail and email is an optional if you feel like it thing. That is all going to change but it will take time. I would go the PB & J route with this campout but it is a council camporree and district folks we know are coming by for dinner Saturday night so I am not going to show at this event with nothing but peanut butter.

As I noted somewhere around here, the last SM (he was a good guy, he rebuilt the troop from almost dead) let them have menus of canned soup, boxed macaroni and cheese and the like. I have been showing them that cooking really good stuff is enjoyable and not hard and so much better tasting and better for them. They have done the road to first class cooking requirements but for many it has been so long that they have not been pratically using it. I am also fighting the mentality of scouting being a twice a month troop meeting thing and sign up for activities if and when you feel like it deal. To give you an idea, the troop never has patrol meetings, we have tried and can''t get anyone to do it, everyone is always too busy and getting the parents to realize it''s importance and get on the scouts to keep up the obligations is a lost effort. We are now having patrol meetings included in troop meetings every other month so it gets done. As I noted, me and the SPL are going to be having some read the riot act moments at the upcoming Green Bar on responsibilty etc.

To me, having 4 completely different menus and grocery lists is a collosal waste of time, and trying to get 4 sets of boys out to get groceries is not going to happen. The other problem si that we have scouts sign up and drop out, others get in on campouts at the last minute. This makes it useless for a patrol where one scout shows up to run his own meal program and others who have late add ons being short food. My goal is that they all plan the meal, divide who cooks what dishes, consider nutrition and generate the grocery list, when campot comes, the food is there and they each cook their one dish by patrol per meal. This is a plan I can eventually make work for us and is more efficient and the boys are still learning the values. If I can get to this point it will be so much further ahead that where things were and where they are now, I will be satisfied and have broken the spoon fed mentality. The PB&J thing that is probably going to happen next month I am looking forward to, it should wake them up.

[BrentAllen]

Highcountry,

The problem with your plan is you are still going to have the same problem - the one you admit you have - the boys don''t know how to cook or plan or buy groceries.

 

"They have done the road to first class cooking requirements but for many it has been so long that they have not been pratically using it."

 

I know a pretty good Troop that runs a plan you might be interested in. The patrols plan their meals two weeks before the trip. The week of the trip, two ASM''s take the grubmasters from the patrols to the grocery store, during the Troop meeting, to buy the food. They work it as anarchist describes. The adults keep the receipts, and the coolers and chow boxes are packed that night.

Not only does this help with quality control on both food and money spent, it also teaches the boys how to do it. If the patrol grubmaster has to do it on his own, there is a good chance that mom or dad will end up doing it instead. They will spend a lot more money and buy huge quantities that end up getting wasted.

 

Until you get down to patrol level cooking, the boys aren''t going to learn how to do it. Ask the parents to let their sons start cooking meals at home, especially breakfast.

Finally, if you get to patrol level cooking, assign adult guests to eat with them at different meals. This makes the patrols work a little harder at having a real meal, and you will hear from the adults how the boys are doing.

This isn''t easy, but to me it is one of the most rewarding parts of the job - seeing those boys cook and feed themselves with no adult involvement. This is one of those parts that really separate Scouting from any other youth activity - who else teaches this level of responsibility and self-sufficiency?

Good luck!

[anarchist]

Highcountry,

 

what am I missing?

 

...you wrote "To me, having 4 completely different menus and grocery lists is a collosal waste of time,"

 

Whose time is wasted? Four groups of boys planning at the same time- takes the same half hour? Then they Shop on their own time? So where is the waste...work yes, waste ...don''t see it!

 

...then you wrote "and trying to get 4 sets of boys out to get groceries is not going to happen."

 

Of course it won''t...not if the Adult leaders do not help the SPL and PLC make it happen.

 

...Then you wrote "The other problem si (sic) that we have scouts sign up and drop out, others get in on campouts at the last minute. This makes it useless for a patrol where one scout shows up to run his own meal program and others who have late add ons being short food."

 

Only if your troop lets them...Once your SPL and PLC have a proper program in place such inconsiderate B.S. is not accepted. If a scout drops- he has already paid for his food and camp fees in advance...and gets no refund. If he does not pay in advance -it''s simple- he does not go..and the patrol does not plan or shop for him. And the policy if you want to be "nice" should be -''no one signs up late without providing his own transport and food; so it is no dragg on the patrol.

 

Once Scouts and parents are faced with consequences, folks tend to get with the program. . A single scout can function if trained...tasks that require "extra hands" can be assisted by other scouts (some of the green bars?) or adults. Really young scouts can be ''adopted'' by another patrol if necessary...after all the "adoptee" would have an excess of food to suppliment the adopting patrol...that they could share at no cost...such a deal.

 

finally (for this reply), you wrote "My goal is that they all plan the meal, divide who cooks what dishes, consider nutrition and generate the grocery list, when campot comes, the food is there and they each cook their one dish by patrol per meal"

 

Lets face it, large groups rarely plan...effectively or efficently nor is the planning usually shared across the group...a few ''chiefs'' step up and make the plan (or menu) and others, (particularly the younger ones) "go along" and learn nothing or very little. It''s sorta like "troop" teaching the first aid merit badge to 30 boys (at the same time)...three or four scouts might actually learn something that matters (at least in their long term memory banks)...but the all boys seem to get "credit" for one or two boys answers. (Such a deal?)

 

Have the patrols practice meal planning, shopping list generation, cost estimates (webelos work really) with older scouts doing suggestions, "thorns and roses" or critiques (call it what you will)...For the actual event have the SPL/ASPL approve/suggest alternate items for menus at the meeting just before the grub master and his food gang collect money and go shopping.

 

What I really see in your post is "wishing to do it right" but more fear. Fear that unless your adults don''t baby sit and organize play dates, the program will fall apart and die...Most likely you will lose some

"lazys", but over time you will have a better program and in the end you will have done more good than you ever could being a tour guide and ''sitter''.

 

"been through it and have seen the better way!"

Anarchist

[Gonzo1]

Highcountry,

It''s not a waste of time if the boys do the planning and the shopping. If an adult were to shop for four diffeent lists, yes, that is too much.

 

Once at camp, the easiest way to enforce patrol method and thereby patrol cooking is to separate the patrols by a minimum of 200 feet, 300 if you can.

 

Have the SPL check over the menus to make sure there aren''t any fluff items like candy bars, pop tarts, PB & J and those nasty vienna sausages and the like. Though, I like pop tarts for backpacking, and not for any other scout camping. I''ve seen scouts (and mommy send) pre-made, store bought PB&J with the crusts cut off. C''mon, what did junior learn from that?

 

Why would you have a better meal at a district event? have "the usual" at a district event because your scouts would otherwise be PROFICIENT and camp cooking, not fumbling around.

 

Make ''em cook, they will thank you later for it.