Dad wants his boys to sleep in his tent

[LongHaul]

     I'm with Ed here, I don't see the Patrol Method requiring all the boys of a patrol to sleep together. As a SM I side with orennoah, parents are not allowed on troop outings however additional Adult supervision is always welcome. If a leader can't accept that they are leaders for the weekend and not parents then they are not much help in supervising what our troop is trying to develop in the boys. The exception is if an adult is there as a parent for diciplinary reasons or medical issues or whatever.

    On thing we must remember when consulting publications is to read what is written and not what we want to find. Having a child of Cub Scout age attend a Boy Scout campout is not prohibited by the GTSS. Having Cub Scouts in the capacity of being Cub Scouts ie a Pack organized event, attend a Boy Scout Campout is a different thing. What you do then is make it a Pack Overnighter that the Boy Scouts attend.

LongHaul

[Lisabob]

I must say I'm a bit surprised. Let's change this around a little and say that the boys are sleeping in a tent with mom on a camp out. I'm pretty sure most people would question why, except for medical concerns or equipment problems, a teen or pre-teen boy needs to sleep in the same tent with mom? And I'm equally sure that it would be harder for any boy who did that to be taken seriously as a leader by his peers. Again, medical exceptions aside or maybe equipment shortages, I just don't see the need to do this.

 

While it might not be "wrong" in the sense that it doesn't violate the rules, it doesn't sound like something most troops would be open to, because it crosses the boundary between adult-as-helper and over-involved parent not giving their child a chance to grow and "be a boy." And I do think it would be detrimental to the patrol method to have kids going off and sleeping with mom or dad rather than over where their patrol mates are. So much for building a sense of patrol identity separate from the troop/family. So much for the bonding (and sometimes, squabbling, I know) that takes place when scouts tent together. So much for sharing the workload of cleaning the tents and taking them down (why should Johnny scout, who slept with Dad, be involved in that?). I see this as being on par with Dad cooking the boys' food for them or doing their dishes for them too.

 

As for cubs on a troop campout - webelos scouts could conceivably attend as a recruiting/intro the troop event. Younger scouts could conceivably be invited to visit for the day to get a sense of the "cool" stuff boy scouts do. But if this is more a matter of younger sibs tagging along because the parents don't know what to do with them? Then what you have here sounds more like families camping together and a lot less like boy scouts. Again, there might be room in the rules for this but how many teenage boys think of camping with their 8 year old sister or brother when they think of boy scouts? Not many that I know, that's for sure! I think we discount the true nature of the program and shortchange our older boys when we do this because there will necessarily be a difference in the types of activities that can be done and the atmosphere at a campout with a bunch of small children included. Heck, it's hard enough to get a program in place that accommodates the differences between 10/11 year old new scouts and 16/17 year old scouts.

 

Here's what I see as the funny part. As a mom and one of rather few women involved with my son's troop, I've been very careful about being perceived as, well, "mothering" my son too much at scout events. I give him LOTS of room to grow, to fall, to get back up and try again. Although I enjoy camping and would love to try some of the things the boys are doing, I seldom camp with the troop because he asked me not to and I respect that this is his experience, his time to be independent from me. But when I, and other moms, have occasionally raised concerns, we still sometimes hear "oh that's just your mothering instinct" or "you're being too protective." That's true in real life as well as on this board sometimes. I can only imagine what the response would be if I announced that I would be camping with the troop and my son would be sleeping in my tent (yeah, I can imagine HIS response - absolute horror!). And to be honest I don't think I'd be happy about him joining a troop where other people did that on a regular basis, either.

[BrentAllen]

I can't imagine too many situations where boys should be sleeping in the same tent with their dad. This is Boy Scouts, not Cub Scouts. They are supposed to camp, cook and function as a patrol. Dad should be in the adult patrol, doing the same thing.

 

From the Patrol Leader Handbook, pg. 72, Camping:

"During troop camping trips, the patrol usually will function as a unit, establishing a campsite independent of the other patrols but not too far from the rest of the troop. Patrol tents can be grouped together, often with buddies sharing two-person tents."

 

Allowing Cubs on Boy Scout trips?? Must not be very challenging camping trips.

 

It's Me - I'm in your same position, dealing with some of your same issues. Good luck. I don't know what happened to the Boy Scouts program I used to know.

[ScoutNut]

Was this sleeping arrangement discussed during the camping equipment prep, or did they just arrive on the trip and announce it then? Was the younger, PL son, a new scout? Did you talk to this dad at all to find out why he felt he needed to have everyone bunk together in the family tent?

 

While sleeping with your dad might keep the boys from bonding somewhat, it should not interfere with any patrol duties. The PL & SPL should both be able to do their jobs. And, as long as all that the dad did for his boys was sleep in the same tent, there should have been no impact on patrol activities. The boys could have set up the tent themselves, cooked, eaten & done everything else with their patrols. Did this happen?

 

If you see this as a problem in the Troop you should address this at the next Committee meeting.

 

On the Cubs coming on Troop campouts, are they there as Cubs or as sibs? Either way, it is not a good idea, but for different reasons.

 

If they are there as Cub Scouts, then the only Cub Scouts that are allowed to camp with a Troop are Webelos. Even then, all youth protection & G2SS rules for CUB Scouts need to be followed & an age appropriate program for Webelos Cub Scouts needs to be provided.

 

IF they are there as sibs, then unless the parent & sib(s) camp in a different area, they are detracting from the Boy Scouts program. Here is what the G2SS says about tag-alongs :

 

"If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers."

 

This is another issue that should be brought up at your next Committee meeting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

I would just like to add that if you approach the dad to discuss this, you should use discretion and not do so where others can hear--especially boys. There may be a reason for this sleeping arrangement that they prefer not to broadcast, such as bedwetting or a health issue that they prefer to keep private.

[LongHaul]

Ive chimed in as a SM now let me speak as a new guy in the unit. Ive been registered since the late 50s and have seen a lot of different units and how they operate. Recently Ive joined a very old troop in another council. Ive talked about this and the fact that this new troop still uses the Leadership Core concept and the LC wear green shirts. That is not the only hold over. Its Me says they joined this troop 5 weeks ago. How would you as an Eagle scout from the troop you are now SM for feel if this New Guy pops up and starts telling you all the things you are doing wrong? When we see something and immediately start looking for where it says they shouldnt be doing this we should ask ourselves What are we going to do with the information when we find it? Go to the SM and say See, here is where it says the PL should be sleeping with his patrol.? What kind of Scout does that make us?

How many of us have each patrol sleep in a different campsite where the phrase not too for from the rest of the troop would come into play? Does this mean we are not employing the patrol method? We have had discussions on this forum before about allowing patrol campouts without adult supervision, most said they would not allow it. Again does this mean we are not employing the patrol method? Allowing siblings to tag along on campouts as a standard practice is not a positive thing for a troop to do but is every instance necessarily a disservice to the unit? Does this mean we can never go to where the general public may be because we may expose the boys to those who do not meet our age guidelines? Whether sibs are present or where a given boy sleeps is only a problem if it results in some disruption of the program at the youth level. If we can have two patrols only 7 tents apart and still call it the patrol method why not other changes to the book norm?

Many have said that this would not be allowed in their troop. Allowed by whom? Is this a PLC rule and what prompted that rule? Is this an adult some where along the line trying to impose his/her vision upon the group? Are we still trying to prove we are men? Not all of us are anymore, which I am going to address in another thread in the Working with Kids section.

LongHaul

 

[Its Me]

Longhaul

 

You seem perfectly happy to accept this sleeping arrangement. To you it doesn't matter. There is no difference. The same scout pops out at the cycle's end.

 

Which program better accomplishes the aims of scouting? Why?

 

A) Boys age 11-17 sleep with their peers in their tents.

B) Boys age 11-17 sleep with their mom or dad and maybe a cub scout brother.

C) There is no difference.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[BrentAllen]

"Many have said that this would not be allowed in their troop. Allowed by whom?"

 

Allowed by the Troop - the boys and the leaders. Parents are told if they want to come on a camping trip, fine, but they are in the adult patrol. They set the example for the boys by camping, cooking, cleaning, functioning as a patrol. The boys in the patrol do the same. They camp in their own patrol locations.

 

LH - where do you draw the line? Do the dads cook for the boys? Do they set up the tents for the boys? Do they plan the meals and buy the groceries for the boys? You could do all that and still say the troop is using the patrol method, under your lose definition. As long as the boys have a patrol emblem on their shoulder, they are practicing the Patrol Method, right?

 

[LongHaul]

>>Which program better accomplishes the aims of scouting?

[Eagle76]

I spun off what I hope will be a fun thread (Adult Patrols) and made a throw-away comment that it's bad for Scouts to sleep with their parents, and I figured I should probably elaborate and defend my statement.

 

Although GTSS is not violated, and maybe it's not a deathknell for the Patrol Method for Scouts to sleep with parents (and I see no difference between Mom and Dad), I think by the time a boy reaches Boy Scouting, it is time to give him some independence (as always, barring any extenuating circumstances, especially medical in nature). Sleeping with a parent immediately raises the questions of "Who set up the tent?", "Who's searching through the Scout's pack to find his extra pair of socks, or his jacket?" and so on.

 

The original question is a symptom of a deeper problem, even if, as others have noted, Its Me will have a difficult time changing things as a newcomer. Long Haul has it right in his last post: Tenting assignments should be part of the troop preparations, done by the Scouts without adults. Troop expectations should be set and communicated that adults operate separately from the Scouts as much as possible. It has to be make clear, as mentioned before, that a troop campout is not Cub Scout Family Camp.

 

Brent Allen rightly quotes: "During troop camping trips, the patrol usually will function as a unit, establishing a campsite independent of the other patrols but not too far from the rest of the troop. Patrol tents can be grouped together, often with buddies sharing two-person tents."

 

However, when Long Haul asks: "How many of us have each patrol sleep in a different campsite where the phrase not too for from the rest of the troop would come into play? Does this mean we are not employing the patrol method?", we should not lose sight of the overall goal. If the geography prohibits spreading out, you still do the best you can. Thus, if patrols are camped side-by-side, they operate as if they were all alone. If the adults are camped right beside, the patrols should operate as if they were not there, as much as possible.

[LongHaul]

As long as we are pretending that the site is bigger and the adults are not present how about if we pretend the scout slept somewhere else?

LongHaul

[SSScout]

15 Scouts. 3 adult Scouters. 3 "real" patrols in troop, but for the purposes of the campout, two patrols are created. Hike in short distance, set up Friday night dry. SM sleeps alone in his small tent. One ASM sleeps w/son in their tent. Third adult (parent of attending Scout) sleeps alone in his NEW tent. SPL sleeps alone in his small tent. Rest of Scouts pair up in troop tents, three in one bigger tent. Camp is set up, and map & compass, Nature study goes on Saturday.. It POURS down rain that night. Third adult new tent leaks like sieve. Three boy tent leaks in one side and soaks one sleeping bag (love those bathtub bottoms). ASM moves into van for night. One boy of three moves in with ASM son. SM and Third adult bunk together, snugly. SPL throw tarp over his tent and avoids

the obvious. Rest of Troop stays reasonably dry. Sunday morning, sun breaks out and a dryer day is enjoyed. Boys learn how to adapt.

 

YiS

[Its Me]

 

Just to let all know, our Scout Master really stepped up and clarified that Scouts need to be with their buddies in their patrols. That the patrol method depends on patrol bonding. That Webelos are welcome with prior approval but cubs and other siblings should be considered as detractors from the Troop's program.

 

I am just paraphrasing and doing a bad job at that, but he really split the hairs by saying this is how it will be going forward without saying it is a violation of Troop policy.

 

A velvet fist would be a good description.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Good for him! Sounds like the best possible outcome. By the way, how is your son liking the program so far?

[Its Me]

 

Lisabob so far Boy Scout has been exceeding his and my expectations. The troop, although not perfect, is a very good match for my boy and the rest of my webelos.