New Scout Patrol or Patrols?

[Beavah]

We used a NSP approach until September and then the boys grouped as they liked and new patrols were formed or existing patrols grew.... The troop is only 8 boys now and the TC is even smaller.

 

I may be misunderstandin'. But doesn't that seem like an experience that would indicate that NSP/age-based patrols doesn't work all that well?

 

As a District trainer Ive visited most of the troops or had sit downs with the leaders and find that those that have existed since the 70s and 80s have a better patrol method in place than do those formed after 1990.

 

I may be misunderstandin', but doesn't this also seem like an argument against the NSP/age-based patrols that were introduced in 1990?

 

Most of the newer troops are adult organized and claim to be boy led because a boy reads the plan an adult wrote. The NSP concept works well in established troops that have boys able and willing to lead. Vertical patrols work in newer troops because there is little patrol method to begin with.

 

Yah, but all your evidence seems to say the opposite. Newer troops (started after 1990) use the NSP/age-based patrol method by and large. They don't often have any knowledge of the older system. Older pre-1990 units often still use vertical patrols if they didn't switch (or tried NSP and switched back, or they do a hybrid with NSP for a few months followed by joinin' old-style vertical patrols).

 

And you're sayin' that newer troops (NSP/age-based) have little patrol method. Yah, I agree. I see da same pattern. I may be misunderstandin', but isn't that an argument in favor of the traditional vertical patrols?

[sst3rd]

It's been exciting to hear all of this stuff for and against New Scout Patrols. We have an older Troop, and have never had to worry about a group of Webolos graduating into our Troop together. Our Pack is up and down. We work with other Packs too. It's a big recruiting thing around here. You know, recruiting from Packs that used to go to their associated Troop (but that's been discussed so many times here). Our Troop supports our Pack as we are able (Den Chiefs). We work with the Webolos on camping trips, etc..

 

We run Patrols. Period. We have an excellent program, and our Scouts bring in their friends to check out. Some stay, others don't. So, those that stay, go to their friend's Patrol. Pretty simple.

 

We'll pick up a couple of Webolos from our pack in the Fall. I'm sending out a blind recruiting/invitation letter to a list of Webolos that have dropped out of the Pack this past year. We don't do phone calls. They'll check it out, or they won't. We have a bunch of younger brothers chomping at the bit to join their older brothers in the Troop. They're nine, almost ten. No, they don't want to join our Pack. They're ready for camping, biking, hiking, swimming, etc.., NOW!!! But they have to wait about another year.

 

So, it's been easier for us. As we don't have to worry about vertical or horizontal Patrols. That's a hoot. Vertical and horizontal Patrols. Folks, run the program, make it exciting. Set up Patrols that work for you after checking with the PLC. The program belongs to the PLC. At least the last time that I looked.

 

sst3rd

(I'm a SM)

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

Did you get the email I sent to you privately?

>> We used a NSP approach until September and then the boys grouped as they liked and new patrols were formed or existing patrols grew.... The troop is only 8 boys now and the TC is even smaller<< I may be misunderstandin'. But doesn't that seem like an experience that would indicate that NSP/age-based patrols doesn't work all that well?

Your first response starts with something that was in place before I arrived and then jumps 12 years to the present and blames everything in between on the NSP concept. My inability to get the scouts to assume responsibility and take control has nothing to do with the NSP concept. The high jacking of my troop by a bunch of power hungry, untrained, and as far as program was concerned uninvolved parents has nothing to do with the NSP concept.

Next you conclude that troops existing before the 70s and 80s dont use the NSP concept and that those formed after 1990 do. I said nothing on whether any of these units use a NSP approach only that older troops have a better patrol method concept in place. You go on to claim that troops formed after 1990 use the NSP method by and large. Maybe in your area but not in mine. The use of the NSP varies across tenure lines and depends on adult understanding and acceptance and the degree of training these adults have. In the troops in my area formed before 1970 that use the NSP concept it was introduced to the PLC and SPL by an adult and adopted as part of the program just as changes in rank requirements or merit badge requirements are implemented. We are going to try a new approach, lets make it work. Those that were formed after 1990 that use it have, as you say, always used it. The failure to get the boys to accept the change from the old way to the new way is no different than my failure to get my boys to accept leadership. Because I couldnt get them to accept boy led does not indicate that boy led is a bad concept? Because our troop was for a lomng time adult organized and grew in numbers does not mean that adult organized is a good method.  Because troops fail to achieve success with the NSP method does not indicate a flaw in the method only the implementation. In Another thread you describe a unit of 120 boys that uses the NSP approach and a unit of 50 that doesnt. Should I then conclude that if the unit with 50 used the NSP method they would be a unit of 120? Before you say they could and choose not to read this again so you see that its not relevant to the argument that NSP or no NSP is the cause.

LongHaul

[Eagledad]

Well Long Haul, your experience is impressive and I bow to the time you've given to our sons.

 

Maybe it's just the way these forum works, but to me you came across fighting to sell these programs on every Troop until the day you die. The military thing really thru me because as Beavah stated, the two programs have nothing in common.

 

I am still confused by your apparent passion for programs that even in your vast broad experience struggles against your best experience with your dads troop. Just as you stated, the BSA is trying to solve the problem, but how long should we try something before we acknowlege that maybe we need to try something else. I really think that is what Beavah was asking in his Patrol Method post. What is the difference in the program in the 70s that is different today? And, what lesson can all of us even take from this discussion?

 

Hey, great reply, I really enjoyed it. Have a great week.

 

Barry

 

 

[LongHaul]

Eagledad,

All I wanted to do with the military thing is point out that we normally dont send people into the middle of things without some basic training.

The troop of my youth, for which my father served as SM for a few years ( I had 4 SMs between 1960 and 1970) cant be compared to the troops of today for several reasons. All of the Adults were male, ( this imparts a different dynamic and attitude among the group than we have today with female leaders) all of the adults except my father, who lost a lung to pleurisy in 1939, served in the military, scouting was actively supported by almost every organization in the community. Our numbers Nationally reflected that. Scouting was by no means cool as far as we wouldnt wear our uniforms to school before den meetings but none of us were ashamed to admit being boy scouts when we were in High School. We didnt graduate from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts until September so you didnt attend summer Camp till after you had been a scout for 10 or 11 months. You didnt camp with or interact with the troop until you joined. We practiced close order drill as a Simon says game. The chain of command was enforced absolutely. You would not dare approach the SPL unless you or your buddy were on fire! Joey was a great guy and you could talk to him as a scout at any time but business went thru the chain, period. We did uniform inspections by the book and with a hard eye, shined shoes and clean finger nails. The American Flag was treated like the icon it is, flag etiquette was very important. I wanted to be a boy scout, I couldnt wait to be a boy scout, I wanted the responsibility of being part of planning and organizing the troop calendar.

Today the boys want instant gratification. They dont want to have to sit down and develop a 12 to 18 month plan so that reservations and logistics can be worked out. . They wish they could play the guitar but have no interest in devoting the time to learning the guitar. A mom told me that she had signed her 15 year old up for Drivers Education in school. After 2 class room sessions the group went down to get their learners permits. When she picked her son up at school that day he was disappointed that she would not let him drive home. Those willing to do the work are in the minority. Today these boys want the program handed to them prewrapped or with little left to do on their part.

What lesson can we all take from these discussions? If Boy Scouts is to survive as an organization we must attract 11 to 18 year old youth. If that means going from boy run to adult planned and organized I will be very sad. One of the greatest things about Scouting is the opportunity for a boy to learn to lead. To function as a member of a group without having to be the leader. To be able to approach adults as equals on a topic and expect that the youths views will be respected. When this becomes a DAD and Lad club or a prepackaged entertainment group Ill hang up my uniforms for the last time.

LongHaul

 

[Beavah]

We run Patrols. Period. ... Set up Patrols that work for you after checking with the PLC.

 

Thanks for da chuckle, sst3rd! Yah, sure, with a good, well-trained PLC, the kids should be able to handle patrol assignments themselves, eh? I agree with you, real youth leadership means that the youth get to "rewrite" how the troop does things.

 

But some scouters are beginners, and some kids are beginners, and we have to tell 'em something to get 'em going. The question for you is "are there older boys in your patrols who lead/mentor younger boys, or are patrols mostly same-age?" Sorry about da "vertical" and "horizontal" terms.

 

*****

 

LongHaul, sorry, I didn't get your PM.

 

Sorry, too, if I was jumpin' around a bit. I just didn't quite understand the argument you were makin'. Might be partly because I'm just seein' different things in the councils I've worked with.

 

You're right, it's hard to tell "causes" over a 12-year span. Just maybe, though, "power-hungry, webelos III" parents are caused in part by same-age patrols. To parents, NSP/same age patrols can feel like the blind leading the blind. There's communications issues. It feels disorganized. They sense "power vacuum". They want more structure.

 

Same deal with boy led. Maybe yeh had a hard time getting your boys to "buy in" to boy-led, partly because as young scouts they weren't placed with older scouts where they could see that organizing and leading was something kids do. Instead, being in same-age patrols, they had to look to adults, and become dependent on adults. Dunno, just a thought.

 

The 1990 point was just that was when NSP and age-based patrols were introduced to the program. So troops formed after that would only have training in the "new" system. Troops from the '70s and '80s would have been trained first in the "old" system, and some of the "old" system would persist even if they implemented NSP/age-based - preservin' Patrol Method in some way that "from scratch" NSP/age-based units can't duplicate.

 

Those are all just loose things to consider, since I really don't know your unit or area.

 

One spot where I really do wish you'd reconsider is da idea that boys today are lazy, want things handed to them, or whatnot. I think boys are boys, pretty much. They respond to their environment the way boys always have. I think when we see behaviors we don't like, we should look to ourselves and our program for the causes first, not to blamin' them.

 

Yah, yah, one boy failing may be the problem of the boy. Multiple boys failing is da problem of the teacher, eh?

 

And sure, that might be a problem of "implementation," but then we still need to then ask "are there other ways to do things that are easier to implement?"(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ASM915]

Beavah,

I have to agree with LongHaul here. Maybe not all scouts/boys are lazy an want everything handed to them, but a darn big percentage of them come across that way. Must be waited on hand and foot at home because they sure seem to expect it. .

Guess again Boys.

I've talked with the new SM about really trying to push the patrol method. We'll become the OLD FARTS PATROL. We'll function just like the boy patrols, plan our menu, do our own cooking, have our own activities (well sorta) on the next camp-out. The boys will have to run their patrols. We'll only advise (help if there really is a problem, but not tell them that). Our NSP (I only use it because of our census right now), I think will show up the older apathetic scouts. My goal is "You had the time to plan and knew how to plan you itinerary, now your living by it this weekend." Afterwards sit down with them and discuss what happened, why and will they "BE PREPRED" the next time for a better outcome.

As for NSP, unfortunately our troop had a lot age out the last two years. We're down to 13 on the recharter, including the 4 crossovers. The problem we have is that 2 out of the four older scouts (15y/o) are lazy, want to hang together not really help with the younger boys. Another is semi-special needs and has a real hard time with remembering skills due to his LD's. He's probably the best scout when it comes to spirit though. This leaves the SPL and a 12 y/o to teach the skills.

The advantage of NSP over VP in our troop is that hopefully by not placing them in a patrol with the older scouts, we can shield them from the apathy the older scouts have toward the program and can show them how scouting and a patrol are really suppose to work, like LongHaul and I remember. Hopefully over the next few years as new crossovers come to the troop, with the help of these new ones, we will be able to use the multi-age patrol method. I really think it is more condusive to learning. I also agree that by being in a multi-age patrol, that if a friend leaves, the scout will have other acquaintances to fall back on and hopefully not follow the friend.

LongHaul, I miss the old days/ways. How about you?

[LongHaul]

I don't know if I miss the old days as much as I miss the old ways. Even my own sons who have been hauled out of the hose as often as I can manage would rather sit in front of a machine and play games. When I "had" to stay in the house it was a like a punishment. As kids we'd be out playing in the rain, the harder the downpour the more kids that were out getting muddy. Today they haul computers around to set up multi links so 4 or 5 can play against each other. Pick up games and "street" anything is unknown. Tried introducing stick ball on a campout because of limited space and the challenge of hitting a ball just a bit bigger than a golf ball with a broom stick was looked upon as being cruel.

LongHaul

[Eagledad]

>>One spot where I really do wish you'd reconsider is da idea that boys today are lazy, want things handed to them, or whatnot. I think boys are boys, pretty much. They respond to their environment the way boys always have. I think when we see behaviors we don't like, we should look to ourselves and our program for the causes first, not to blamin' them.

[LongHaul]

Ok I'll bite. How is it my fault that I can't change the way a 10 1/2 or 11 year old thinks? If from birth they are told what to ewat and where to sit why is a lack of effort on my part that they don;t want to decide for themselves in the Troop? Kids are dreamers but after 1 year, 18 months, 2years someone has to take the leadership role or the Patrol Method and Boy led goes right out the window. If your starting with a well established boy led troop it's not as hard but what do you do when all you have is 10 1/2 and 11 year old new scouts who are now 12 and 13 year olds and want to play game boy or PS2 rather than hike? Hike? You mean like walk instead of being driven 3 blocks to school. Breaking a mind set isn't that easy without a model.

LongHaul

IMO the only requirements a boy should be working on, as group or as a prearranged class, is swimming requirements. Second Class 7 First Class 9. Summer camp is supposed to be fun not a cram course.

[Beavah]

How is it my fault that I can't change the way a 10 1/2 or 11 year old thinks?

 

Nah, not your fault, LongHaul. Not the kids' fault, either.

 

But it is our job as scouters to help them, eh?

 

So if we find that we're not being successful, we've got to change our methods, get new ideas, and work at it until our performance improves, for our units and our kids. That's what EagleDad meant by trying NSP, not getting "the performance we wanted" and then tryin' something else, yah?

 

No blame. No "disdain" for BSA materials, which are overall very good. Just a recognition that when it isn't workin' for our kids, we have to be creative, be flexible, and keep tryin'.

 

Our job is service, eh?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

It's been awhile since I have posted my favorite quote regarding the state of the next "generation"

 

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for

authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in

place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;

they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their

food and tyrannize their teachers."

 

Socrates

 

Apparently its the job of the youth to keep the old guys on their toes and make them shake their heads in disgust. The odd thing is, eventually the youth become the old guys and will be shaking thier heads in disgust. While looking at a young couple in the mall, fresh with eye brow ring, nose ring and facail tattoo, (that was the young lady)I wonder what people thought 20 odd years ago when I toured the Mall in my pastel yellow linen elephant bells, 5 inch leather stacked suede platform shoes and skin tight metallic polyester shirt.

 

Mi'lady of course would be wearing no bra, granny glasses and a an Indian (as from India) cotton blouse with exotic embroidery and sandals crafted to look like they were made from tire treads.

 

Life has a way of moving forward

 

[BrentAllen]

Longhaul,

You may have just been using the hike just as an example, but my question is who decided the boys should go on the hike? Did the boys? They are supposed to be deciding their calendar, the trips they want to go on. If you get the boys together and they decide they want to play electronic games rather than go camping, then explaing that Scouting is Outing, and if they don't want to play, they don't belong in Scouts.

If the boys haven't experienced a really fun camping trip, then maybe you provide a little more adult leadership at first to let them see how much fun camping and hiking can be. If they don't like it, then why are they in Scouts to begin with? Because their parents want them to be? If so, bad answer.

Not trying to be nosey, but have you attended Wood Badge?

[LongHaul]

BrentAllen,

Didnt realize you had posted a question, cant get the last 24 hour thing to work. If I took out all the boys that were in the troop because their parents wanted them to be I would not have a troop. Or actually Id have such a small troop we couldnt use the patrol method, there would be little if any youth leadership because there would be no one to lead, and it would become a Camping Club that wore scout uniforms. With a constant level of 6 to 10 boys you have little POR availability.

My hike reference should actually have been a walk reference. Most of these kids wanted Car camping to the extent that they didnt want to go to our Council camp because you had to carry your gear in about 1/3 mile from the parking lot. Heavy troop boxes could be brought in by camp truck but individual gear was carried. Our Summer Camp is set up so two sites share a bathroom facility. The troop sharing our site drilled a hole in the side of the bathroom to run an electrical cord out to the Games tent which had a computer, monitor, TV and Nintendo set up in it! My guys were not the only ones that wanted to travel 200 miles to play video games. Half the guys were into walking all over camp to do activities and half wanted to just stay in site. The walk to the dinning hall and back three times a day was more physical exertion than most of these kids did in one day.

As for Woodbadge I was a bear in 1998, and have taken an taught most of the training available except for Powderhorn. I wanted to be a scout, I couldnt wait to be a scout, I long to be able to grab 50 pounds of gear and food and disappear into the mountains or forest for a week. My first trip to Philmont with these guys, they brought Magic Cards to play once we got to camp each day. Side Hike were most definitely four letter words.

LongHaul

 

[Beavah]

Or actually Id have such a small troop we couldnt use the patrol method, there would be little if any youth leadership because there would be no one to lead, and it would become a Camping Club that wore scout uniforms.

 

Yah, but maybe that would give you a core of kids to build up a stronger program, eh? You might even use 'em for mixed-age patrols this time :).

 

Sounds like yeh could use the services of a good commissioner. I suspect that sort of unit service isn't somethin' that Chicago Area Council is interested in at the moment.

 

My hike reference should actually have been a walk reference. Most of these kids wanted Car camping to the extent that they didnt want to go to our Council camp because you had to carry your gear in about 1/3 mile from the parking lot.

 

Yah, I think the way yeh deal with this is you identify the small group of kids that's interested in a little bit more, and yeh go do something fun with just them. You'd be amazed how quickly kids get out of their funk when they see other boys workin', havin' fun, and getting your positive attention.

 

The troop sharing our site drilled a hole in the side of the bathroom to run an electrical cord out to the Games tent which had a computer, monitor, TV and Nintendo set up in it!

 

Sounds like the perfect target for a camp prank .