Scouter Patrol?

[prairie]

Not the best title, hope I can write close to what I'm thinking.

Many here are not happy with the change scouting made in the early seventys, many have written what they would like to change or how an alternate scoutlike orginazation offers a "truer" program.

The question seems to be, can most troops opperate under the patrol system under the current rules. Some do now but as long as the current handbooks are used by new scouters they won't get exposed to the real patrol method until its to late, they already do it another way, and it works for them, sorta, so why change?

What I am pondering is a casual but dedicated socity of scouters who subscribe whole heartedly to the "old" Patrol Method and the rest of pre1970s scouting. Their purpose, to encourage and foster the Patrol Method in their own troops and to gently enlighten new Scouters to the value of the Patrol Method, all within the current structure.

To this end a book would need to be written and distributed covering these core values, the cost to be low enough copies could be given to new Scouters, maybe as simple as a PDF file that could print off and staple into a phamphet/booklet.

This is not to be an alternative to woodbadge, no beads, patches or pins to be worn, "training" would be less formal, mostly discussions with others like minded round the fire or crackerbarrel. Leadership would be charged with keeping the core values intact and make changes small and only when overwhelmingly needed.

I would call this the Green Bar Patrol, but other names would work as well, the purpose is far more important than any name I might dream up and the name should not cause proablems on its own. If there is a copywrite on Green Bar another name can be found, other totems embraced.

 

Would you join the "GBP", maybe pay a small one time fee to keep the server running, print off and bind/staple the guidebook freely given, follow the guidebook in your scouting activites, take part in a movement to carefully guide scouting away from a corporate/factory/troop model?

 

Or am I tilting at windmills using a reinvented wheel?

 

Discalmer: I don't want to lead, run a website, sell stuff or start a fight. Just proposing how adults might network their efforts.

Hope this has been usefull; prairie

[FScouter]

"The question seems to be, can most troops opperate under the patrol system under the current rules."

 

What rules inhibit the use of the patrol method, either the current or old version?

 

You might be interested in the kudu.net website. It has a lot of ideas from days past.

[sst3rd]

Prairie,

 

a "truer" program

real patrol method

"old" Patrol Method

pre1970s scouting

gently enlighten

value of the Patrol Method

core values intact

corporate/factory/troop model

 

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! spin, spin, spin...................

 

It's been interesting to read Kudo being severely critical of the "current" BSA program. Scouting is an ever changing program. Always has been. Some good, others maybe not, but is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure what you guys are looking for, but it ain't going to happen in this BSA. Our Troop is only about 50 years old, so relatively young compared to a lot of Troops. Our Troop has always been made up of Patrols. We train our youth leaders to organize their Patrols. They camp, eat, and do most all of their activities as Patrols. The Patrol Leader is trained to delegate Patrol responsibilities around the Patrol, so as a team, they can get a lot more accomplished (camping chores done), so they can get to the program, as Patrols. And then they can goof off as Patrols (or maybe mix it up with the other Patrols). Our SPL and his Staff run the Troop's programs for the Patrols. They help the Patrol Leaders teach Scouting skills as well. How hard does it have to be???????????

 

Is it that the skills over the many years have changed? Older skills having been dropped, and more current skills being added? Is that it? Is that the "beef" that you guys have? Because I don't see where the basic organization has been altered. Patrols. Patrols. Patrols.

 

This is the way our adult Staff has interpreted the current program. It happens to be the way we've intrepreted the program for almost 50 years.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

I'm done.

 

sst3rd

[prairie]

"What rules inhibit the use of the patrol method, either the current or old version?"

Your right FScouter, I chose my words badly, not thinking of rules written in stone but of the rules people think are there because thats how things are done. Even an hour spent on the first post was not enough for the topic.

Maybe something like institutional momentum might be closer.

I will check out kudu.net thankyou for the tip

[prairie]

sst3rd

You describe a very successfull troop with a good instatutinal (sp) memory with little need for what I'm sugesting. And yet i feel by the tone of your post you feel threatened and that was not my intent.

As to the spin words, I was trying to make my view clear, could be if I had polished the text for a week it would read diffrent but the muse was on me, and that seldom happens, I'm the farmer, my sister is the wordsmith.

 

Sure skills change with the times, as long as the reason to change them isn't because a new leader wants to leave their mark, thats good. I'm just brainstorming on how to get the information in the hands of scouters new and old.

 

[moxieman]

Anyone who has suggestions for improvement for the Boy Scout Handbook can make their opinions known. In another thread:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=150130

 

I have posted who you can send those suggestions to.

[Eagledad]

Most here know my heart with the patrol method. We've had many discussions and most of the time I come away thinking that most adults stumble because they don't focus on the outcome, goals or vision. I enjoy reading Kudu's post, but I always feel he hasn't yet understood the the means justifies the end. He is trying very hard to build a program that looks like the old program. But looks doesn't get you the old program.

 

Fscout is right that todays BSA can enable the old program. I've seen it. But my observations of successful programs are the adults first understand the man they are trying to build, then build the kind of program that will allow that man to come out of the boy.

 

Most adults go wrong in that they think they can force a boy to become a man. The old program, as you call it here, is only different in that the adults step out of the way and let the boy find himself. That is a very hard concept today. My questions here are what do you want the boys to get from the program? That is a question Kudu needs to ask as well. I don't think the answer is simple or easy. But I do think they give direction of building a program of using todays BSA and getting the old programs results.

 

Barry

[epalmer84]

Here in Troop 84:

 

Our older youth leaders are in the Greenbar Patrol, somewhat like the Leadership Corps of two decades ago. They generally camp and cook as a patrol. They can go on patrol campouts. I suppose we could make them a Venture Patrol, but those who are really interested in those activities are in the crew.

 

The Scoutmaster Corps is formed into the Old Viking Patrol. Our emblem is a horned helmet with crossed crutches. During meetings, we are away from the youth and we camp and cook as a patrol. We just have more toys, but we do let others play. We do menus and rosters just like the rest. Any parents that come on a campout are with our patrol.

 

By doing so, we try to set the example for the youth patrols. It seems to work. It also keeps the adults out of the Scouts way.

 

Ed

[prairie]

Lead by Example

I could use some posters that say that.

 

epalmer84 and Eagledad, good input.

 

We can't turn back time, we can use what was best back then now. Keep Scouting outdoors as much as possible. Allow failure, offer advice not blame when it happens. The sooner a Scout knows in his heart HE will make the diffrence between a good day and a poor one the better. A Scout should feel pride in a service project, he made his world a better place.

Humm, can't seem to think of a way to end this posting but its time to go eat my oatmeal.(This message has been edited by prairie)

[SR540Beaver]

I did some exploring the other day after Google(ing) "patrol method" and a few other terms like "history", "William Hillcourt" and "Green Bar Bill". I even read some of what BP himself had to say about patrols. I then went to the BSA website and read some of what they have to say about patrols. Honestly, I just don't see that much difference between yester-year and today. Are there troops where the adults get in the way and hamper patrols? Sure. I'll be the same was true 30, 40 and 50 years ago too.

 

Probably the biggest difference would be how patrols are made. Still, I bet the same was true even in the good old days. Patrols ebb and flow over time. They can get to be all one age or too small or to large or a social clique. Sometimes this can create problems. Often you'll see adults interject themselves onto the patrol makeup. Again, I'd lay money onthis happening long ago. A patrol was supposed to be a natural gang of boys who play together. Times have changed. My son and I drive over 20 miles one way to get to our troop even though there is a troop less than a mile from our house. None of the boys there would be someone he would play with in the neighborhood or school.

 

We utilize the new scout patrol for about the 1st nine months a boy is in the troop. We utilize the "older" boys to do teaching and training, so the new boys and older boys are exposed to each other. When it is time for them to move to regular patrols, everyone has a pretty good idea of where they fit in.

 

Just like allowing for new materials like nylon, aluminum and fleece, how a patrol comes together in this day and age might need to change based on the circumstance.

 

The patrol method is alive and well in the BSA program and in the individual units. It has evolved some just like equipment has. But while a bulky and heavy canvas tent is a tent, so is a lighweight nylon backpacking tent. A patrol is still a patrol and the patrol method is still the patrol method. If new leaders will follow the BSA program as designed, the patrol method will be utilized.

[eagle_scout98]

I will feign some ignorance here since I was a Scout during the 90s and have continued on since then but I had a patrol all through my Scouting time and know pleny of units that have patrols in their Troops.

 

So, feigning ignorance, I have to ask if the general thoughts behind patrols are any different than they were when my dad was in Scouts (late 60s and early 70s).

 

The only thing I think that may be different, basing it off of my views on the local Troops, is that patrols don't go off and do things on their own as much as they could. I also don't think that the idea of a Venture patrol is used as much as it could be.

 

Now, is this something that we need to create a whole separate subgroup with its own rules, training, manuals and fees? Personally, I don't think so.

 

I think we merely need to reinforce the idea of the patrol method within the current training we have. I have not taken the Scoutmaster specific training (yet anyways) but I think that would be a great place to start.

 

Unit commissioners can also do a good job of coaching units on the patrol method.

 

As you put it prairie, I'm not looking for an arguement, just my thoughts.

[Kudu]

prairie writes:

 

The question seems to be, can most troops operate under the patrol system under the current rules.

 

It depends on how you define "rules" versus "common practices"!

 

Yes, you can run a "Green Bar Bill" Troop within the current Advancement Requirement "rules," for instance, but you will want to rethink "common practices" carefully to do so. For instance, to practice Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method you need Patrol Leaders qualified to teach and to sign-off on Advancement requirements. Currently this is often done by adults or the Troop Guide because "Patrol Leader" is seen as a temporary position, an opportunity for the Scoutmaster to teach "leadership." The Patrol Leader then gets to practice "leadership" for six months or a year, then it is someone else's "turn" to be Patrol Leader and learn about "leadership." Term limits are often seen as a virtuous planned obsolesce with the goal of creating opportunities to teach "leadership" to new Patrol Leaders.

 

In other words, the purpose of the Patrol Method now is as a proving ground for the 1972 Method of Scouting called "Leadership Development."

 

Prior to 1972 the goal of training was teach Patrol Leaders the PRACTICAL SKILLS they needed to run independent Patrols, but there is no "rule" against including this now as supplemental training. To train your Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method, you will need to use William Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" course (see below).

 

To this end it will also be necessary to design a training session for interested Scouters in the "History of the Patrol Method" and the "History of the Methods of Scouting" because Ken Blanchard Wood Badge advocates insist that the current Patrol Method is essentially the same as the one pioneered by William Hillcourt. This leads to confusion over the term "Patrol Method." I hope to put together such presentations for use in local University of Scouting history sessions (btw, what equipment do you all use to project images on classroom walls these days?)

 

The thing that the "enforcer" types will object to most is Troop-level reversal of the damage done to the Patrol Method by the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development." This would begin with adopting Hillcourt's Six Methods of Scouting model rather than the BSA's current Eight Methods of Scouting. This way of looking at Scouting is just a thought-crime, but expect a spirited debate :-)

 

Likewise if you really want to practice the Patrol Method, you must examine common practices such as Troop elections for SPL, for instance. In both B-P's "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method," the PATROL LEADERS RUN THE TROOP and the SPL serves at the PLC's pleasure. The rise of the power of the SPL coincides with the weakening of the power of Patrol Leaders through constant turnover and no practical traininng. So if the current BSA Handbooks say that the SPL is elected in a Troop election (the "Troop Method"), does this mean that Troop SPL elections are a "rule" in the same way that bold type in the Guide to Safe Scouting is a "rule"? Expect "feedback" in this area too :-)

 

What I am pondering is a casual but dedicated society of scouters who subscribe wholeheartedly to the "old" Patrol Method and the rest of pre1970s scouting. Their purpose, to encourage and foster the Patrol Method in their own troops and to gently enlighten new Scouters to the value of the Patrol Method, all within the current structure.

 

In the rest of the world this movement is called "Traditional Scouting." Traditional Scouting usually refers to an alternative association that uses Baden-Powell's version of Scouting, often referred to as "Baden-Powell Scouting." So if your goal is to return to pre-1972 values within the current BSA structure, consider a term that makes that distinction: "William Hillcourt Scouting," for instance.

 

To this end a book would need to be written and distributed covering these core values, the cost to be low enough copies could be given to new Scouters, maybe as simple as a PDF file that could print off and staple into a pamphlet/booklet.

 

The best Scouter Handbooks ever written are already available for $5-$15 each. Look carefully for the 3rd, 4th, or the 5th editions (and/or printing dates between 1936-1971) of used BSA Scoutmaster's handbooks, see:

 

http://tinyurl.com/3cdjts

 

An outline of the changing Methods of Scouting therein can be found at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

Perhaps we need a guide to Hillcourt's Scoutmaster handbooks that outlines how to apply them within the "letter of the law" of the current BSA program, but I think this can be done better in a Scouter.Com Forum devoted to ongoing dialogue on the subject of William Hillcourt because this will be mostly a matter of interpretation.

 

This is not to be an alternative to Wood Badge, no beads, patches or pins to be worn, "training" would be less formal, mostly discussions with others like minded round the fire or cracker-barrel.

 

We do need an alternative to Wood Badge because the Patrol Method is best learned by actually doing it and Scoutmasters need such practical training if they are to really understand the Traditional Patrol Method beyond mere "book-learning" and campfire chats.

 

Keep in mind that the BSA does sometimes adopt successful unofficial local training courses. If a new Traditional training course leads to success in increasing membership in a couple of local Troops, for instance, expect interest on the local Council level. If an optional Council-level course proves to be successful (which admittedly is unlikely because non-required training is not usually very popular) then possibly regional testing of the course may happen. Sometimes this even leads to eventual national testing at Philmont.

 

If the current trademark litigation over the term "Scouting" ever results in the deregulation of Scouting so that Scouting associations based on pre-1970s Scouting are allowed to compete openly with the BSA, the BSA may become especially interested in an already-existing Traditional William Hillcourt/Green Bar Bill Scouting movement within the ranks of its own membership. This could be a resource for a BSA product drawing from its own rich (but forgotten) traditions.

 

and make changes small and only when overwhelmingly needed.

 

This is perhaps the most important thing. In Traditional Scouting the program is a snapshot at a particular time, with changes limited to advances in 1) Heath and Safety; 2) Environmental Concerns (Leave no Trace); 3) Lightweight Camping Equipment (including material for Uniforms); and (in international Traditional Scouting movements) 4) National Variations in climate, native cultures, and relevant laws.

 

A "Green Bar Bill" Traditional Scouting program would use August 1, 1965 (the date of William Hillcourt's retirement) as the "snapshot" date of the Patrol Method because it has been pointed out that POR's were added to Advancement requirements prior to the 1972 massacre. Such a program would be how use the Patrol Method as it existed in 1965 while following the BSA rules as they exist today.

 

I would call this the Green Bar Patrol, but other names would work as well...

 

The term "Green Bar Patrol" (GBP) has a specific meaning: It is William Hillcourt's "Patrol Leader Training" (PLT) Patrol, comprised of the Troop's Scoutmaster as the GBP Patrol Leader, the Troop's Senior Patrol Leader as the GBP Assistant Patrol Leader, and the Troop's Patrol Leaders, Assistant Patrol Leaders, (and other Junior Leaders if necessary to form a full Patrol) as the GBP Patrol Members. Once a month for six months the Scoutmaster models the behavior of a Patrol Leader leading a Patrol Meeting (usually on the same day as the PLC meeting), leading a Patrol Hike on the fifth month, and a Patrol Campout during the sixth month.

 

This means that "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" teaches how to plan and conduct a Patrol Meeting by actually holding Green Bar Patrol Meetings; How to plan and conduct a Patrol Hike by actually holding a Green Bar Patrol Hike; and How to plan and conduct a Patrol Campout by actually holding a Green Bar Patrol campout.

 

If you are interested in viewing this, I have revised Green Bar Bill's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" course so that the reading assignments correspond to the page numbers in the current BSA Patrol Leader's Handbook and Scoutmaster's Handbook, See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Would you join the "GBP", maybe pay a small one time fee to keep the server running,

 

I'm not sure why you would need a server. A "William Hillcourt Scouting" or "Green Bar Bill" Forum at Scouter.Com would be the perfect place for discussion on the topic (given the Site Dedication to William Hillcourt).

 

Likewise, I have gathered over 2,000 pages of pre-1972 material on Inquiry.Net (and its mirror site, Kudu.Net) to which I would be happy to add any relevant material.

 

Given the more than five million page-views a year on Inquiry.Net (21,084 yesterday, for instance), there seems to be significant interest in pre-1970s Scouting material among BSA Scouters to justify further discussion of Prairie's ideas.

 

Kudu

 

[prairie]

Well my ignorance is showing, I had not rellized the Green Bar Patrol had a life of its own and it was for Scout leadership enhancement instead of my thought of Scouter mindset training.

I wonder if a tiny troop could run just fine with no SPL as long as the PLs could reach concencus quickly.

 

"The best Scouter Handbooks ever written are already available for $5-$15 each. Look carefully for the 3rd, 4th, or the 5th editions (and/or printing dates between 1936-1971) of used BSA Scoutmaster's handbooks, see"

 

But if you start giving them away to every fresh scouter the supply will be exhausted quickly, hence my notion to gather the very best bits into a easy to cary booklet. I am proud to say a young man who will have his Eagle shortly asked to borrow my 5th edition to prepare himself as a ASM, hated to let go of it but not about to stand in the his way.

 

I would just as soon BSA kept their mitts off of it cause they will have to tinker with it till its dead or worthless. The purpose is to help adults understand how to get the boys to take charge of their program and then mentor them.

Maybe thats the name I should have chosen, Hillcourt Mentors.

Thankyou Kudu for you imput, we maybe traveling diffrent roads but heading for the same destination.

[Kudu]

Eagledad writes:

 

most adults stumble because they don't focus on the outcome, goals or vision. I enjoy reading Kudu's post, but I always feel he hasn't yet understood the the means justifies the end...My questions here are what do you want the boys to get from the program? That is a question Kudu needs to ask as well.

 

The "means justifies the end," eh?

 

The "means" in BSA Scouting are the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," and the "end" in BSA Scouting is the so-called "Three Aims of Scouting."

 

The Game of Scouting as it is described by Baden-Powell or William Hillcourt is such a perfect game that an adult can slap just about ANY justification onto it and feel that his efforts are all worthwhile.

 

So, indeed, "the means justifies the end!"

 

The problem with BSA Scouting is that when serious-minded adults decide to ignore that Scouting is a GAME and "focus on the outcome, goals, or vision," it usually involves short-changing the Patrol Leaders so that the adults can feel important.

 

In other words "the ends justify the means"

 

These adult efforts to short-circuit the Patrol Method are especially focused through the two "adulty" Methods: Adult Association and Leadership Development, with additional damage done to Scouting with the adulty interpretation of the Ideals of Scouting as offering an opportunity to block the Advancement Method.

 

In a nutshell:

 

"Adult Association" is shorthand for the powers that the adults took away from the Patrol Leaders and gave to the adults to make them feel important (BEFORE William Hillcourt was hired by the BSA) and

 

"Leadership Development" is shorthand for the training that the adults took away from the Patrol Leaders and gave to the other Junior Leaders to make them feel important (AFTER William Hillcourt retired from the BSA).

 

Much of what we now call "Adult Association" was deeply embedded in the BSA by the time that Hillcourt came along. Adults love Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review, so there was no way that Hillcourt was going to take that away from them to give Advancement back to the Patrol Leaders.

 

So I think it is fair to say that:

 

"Adult Association" was the major difference between Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method," and

 

"Leadership Development" is the major difference between William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" and the BSA's post 1972 "Patrol Method."

 

Scouting is a GAME! In a perfect world Congress would mandate that the monopoly on Scouting that it granted the BSA be earned by forcing Scoutmasters to screw up school sports games, rather than screwing up the Game of Scouting with its "focus on the outcome, goals or vision."

 

This would be simple enough. Any school sport in which boys "advance" toward a "goal" would be moderated by Wood Badge types. As a boy advances on a field, his "School Spirit" would be judged by a Scoutmaster referee. If the referee decides that he doesn't like the athlete's attitude, then the athlete's advancement would be delayed until the boy learns to better reflect "the man they are trying to build."

 

For a "goal" to result in a "score" the athlete would have to complete a Scoutmaster Conference with a BSA trained Scoutmaster, and a Board of Review staffed by local BSA Troop Committees.

 

All outdoor sports would be played in indoor Boy Scout uniforms created by a dress designer in 1980. To show the proper respect, this uniform would be neat and clean before an athlete is granted a BoR. Mud and grass-stained boys need not apply.

 

The training of both coaches and athletes would be focused on the 1972 Wood Badge 11 Leadership Skills or the 21st Century Wood Badge Ken Blanchard skills rather than on specialized training. To paraphrase the BSA on the training of Patrol Leaders:

 

In general, quarterback training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on football skills. The team will not rise and fall on the quarterback's ability to call offensive plays, throw to a receiver, hand off to a running back, or scramble, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill!

 

("In general, patrol leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft skills. The patrol will not rise and fall on the patrol leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill.")

 

With BSA adults' attentions focused on spoiling sports by "first understanding the man they are trying to build, then building the kind of program that will allow that man to come out of the boy," Congress would mandate that Scouting (including the BSA's sissy core Outdoor Method) return to the way it was designed by Baden-Powell.

 

A whole new generation of boys would then decide that "sports is gay" and would instead join Scouting for the adventure it offers in Patrols run by Patrol Leaders.

 

Kudu

 

[SR540Beaver]

I'm just curious, do "Wood Badge types" fly black helicopters?