Factory Scouting

[SR540Beaver]

"So I think Beav might have hit the nail on the head, when the Scouts opt for the mess hall over doing the cooking and clean up. Lets be honest how many Scouts really want to spend time washing up?"

 

Part of my point isn't just whether or not a boy wants to participate in clean up. They are boys, the short answer is no. Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing. They want it to be the cherry on top. That means getting to do scouting activities without a lot of the additional busy work. How does going to a summer camp that has tents already set up on platforms and a dining hall make them worse scouts? It doesn't.

[epalmer84]

For six years I was part of Alpine District in the Transatlantic Council (TAC). All three of the summer camps we attended used patrol cooking, as none of the camps (Camp Dahn, Camp Freedom and Bayern High Adventure Camp) were on council owned property (I'm not sure that TAC has ever actually owned any) and none had a dining hall.

 

Jackson Scout Reservation in Tennesee Valley Council cooked the meals in a central kitchen and trucked them out to at least two dining pavilions.

 

Camp Shenandoah in Stonewall Jackson Area Council has the traditional central dining hall with attached kitchen. The dining hall has been enlarged twice in the last 30 years and the kitchen was remodeled two years ago.

 

Frankly, I like the patrol cooking concept. Yes, there is more discipline required. The Scouts have to keep a roster, get up early, get meals prepared on time and clean up. The first two days were a bit rough, but they got into the swing quickly.

 

At Shenandoah, we have flags, announcements and a grace, queue up at the doors and wait. We get a plate as we go in and get served. We then move over to our table and sit down and eat. It is hot, crowded and noisy. There is no real comraderie, as no-one can really have a discussion. Upon dismissal, you have to leave so they can clean up.

 

Which of these scenarios teaches planning, discipline and leadership?

 

Ed

[Gonzo1]

Eamonn makes a good case for patrol cooking camps whether he intended to or not. A council trying to raise a $1,000,000 for a chow hall!

 

Maybe it's just me, but $1,000,000 for a chow hall to feed about 1,000 people for the summer doesn't seem worth it. What's the "life expectancy" of a chow hall? 25, maybe 30 years.

 

$1,000,000 / 25 years = $40,000 per year. This doesn't account for interest and doesn't account for other uses like training and meeting. I'm sure training and meetings could be held in some less expensive building.

 

A troop could attend a patrol cooking camp, scouts could cook all meals and still, if the scout had any initiative could earn 5 or 6 merit badges, plus do the mile swim.

 

When I was a boy, my troop went to the same patrol cooking camp every year, Camp Freeland Leslie for 2 weeks each summer. One year in particular, I had so much fun, when I got home, I found another troop in town that was going the next week, so I went for 3 weeks. It wasn't that I earned a bazillion badges (I didn't), I just had fun, and I earned SOME badges.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Ed: "Which of these scenarios teaches planning, discipline and leadership?"

 

Ed, our boys have weekly patrol meetings where they take care of patrol business, plan their activities, do their menu and roster, etc. They occasionally have outside patrol meetings to take care of things that can't be handled in their patrol meeting during troop meetings. They camp in their own patrol site and do their own cooking and KP on each monthly outing. They are quite accustomed to planning, discipline and leadership because it is part of the weekly, monthly and annual ongoing process. While I maintain that I have absolutely nothing against patrol cooking at summer camp, I just don't buy the argument that it is goingto provide something to the patrol that they are not already getting each week at meetings and each month on outings. Alowing them to focus on FUN and a little advancement while at summer camp instead of cooking three meals a day and doing KP is not that bad of a thing.

 

Gonzo: "It wasn't that I earned a bazillion badges (I didn't), I just had fun, and I earned SOME badges."

 

Gonzo, that kind of makes my point. Most boys go to summer camp to have FUN. They still do it within the troop/patrol structure, but they want it to be different than the same old, same old of a monthly outing. They want it to be a scouting vacation and a little more carefree.

 

Bottom line again.....there is room on both sides of the aisle. I have no problem if a camp uses patrol cooking or dining hall cooking. Different strokes for different folks. One is not worse than the other and one is not better than the other. If your boys want dining hall cooking because the adults cook for them on campouts, you've got a problem in your troop. If you want your boys to cook at camp because you think it is going to build patrol spirit, then something must be missing in your regular program.

 

Summer camp should be fun and fun can be had either way you go.

 

One additional note. Many modern day dining halls are more than a dining hall and kitchen. Many also house the medical facility, offices and trading post under one roof. One camp we go to even has an indoor climbing wall that can be used in bad weather. They do a climbing race between troops during lunch. The outside of the building is rock and has been designed for climbing as well.

[Eamonn]

Not sure if I should spin off or not?

Over the years I have working with the youth leadership helped organize and put together a fair number of Summer Activities.

The agenda for planning a summer activity starts with: What, Where and When.

The What is at times the hardest item.

The Scouts have all sorts of ideas about what they want to do and at times I know that I have been shall we say forceful with my ideas.

I'm a firm believer that all of our Scouts need to have a firm grasp of the basic Scouting skills and this grasp allows us to do more activities without too much fuss or bother (Hopefully!!).

Some skills are just fun. To be honest other than as a fun activity I have never ever had the real need to light a fire with flint and steel.

I'm happy to sleep in a tent. But I see it as a means to an end. The best thing about going away and sleeping in a tent is that it's inexpensive. There have been times when bringing tents and equipment just wouldn't work so we stayed somewhere else.

When we took the Troop to Kandersteg, the first time we stayed in the chalet. The second time we joined up with a BSA Troop based in Germany, used their tents and ate with them in a big mess tent, where some of their adults took care of the cooking.

Some of the Scouts who attended this activity still to this day say it was the best summer they have ever spent.

When we took the Troop to Galway in Ireland. We camped in a farmers field. For the most part the Scouts cooked in Patrols. We had taken the canoes with us, so each day a Patrol would be out on the lakes. We also had days when we went sightseeing. On these days they either packed a lunch before leaving camp or we ate out. Some days when we arrived home a little late, I would grab a couple of Scouts and I'd cook the evening meal for the entire Troop.

When we went to Rotterdam, we camped at the Camp Center. Some days were spent working with the younger Scouts on advancement, while others build pioneering projects. Again some days we went out to see the sights. Clog making, cheese farms and the Maduradam. (If you want to see a great miniature city you have to go!!) We camped with Dutch Scouts, mixed the patrols. Again for the most part the Scouts cooked in Patrols, it's easier to cook for eight than fifty.

We spent the most miserable two weeks of my life camping in the Lake District of England, it rained and rained and rained some more.

The Scouts were wet (I was wet!!) We were camped on the side of a mountain. We had gone with the idea of sailing on the lakes. That wasn't happening. We changed the program a lot!! We ended up visiting steam railways, one night just to cheer the Scouts up we went to the movies and finished the evening with fish and chips from the local chip shop!!

Our District held an annual Camp Craft competition. This was the competition that everyone wanted to win.

Scouts camped in Patrols and just about everything was judged. We were the winners a lot of times and in my 11 years were never out of the top three!!

I like and enjoy what might be called Traditional Scouting, I think every Scout should have mastered the skills to be First Class.

Still I also see that we promise the Scouts Fun, Adventure and Challenge.

When we don't provide these the Scouts don't remain in Scouting and any possibility of them ever becoming a "Good Scout" is lost.

Eamonn.

 

[Venividi]

SR540beaver,

 

I will take a stab at responding to your questions:

 

>>Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? >How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. >Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing.

Not sure I understand this comment. Summer camp is different than monthly outings even if they spend some of their time cooking.

 

>>They want it to be the cherry on top.That means getting to do scouting activities without a lot of the additional busy work.

[SR540Beaver]

Venividi,

 

Good post and I don't disagree with anything you said. I do want to make an observation concerning this comment, "Just my opinion, but if cooking is presented to the scouts as busy work, they will perceive it as busy work and want to avoid it. If cooking is presented as a time of coming toghether to prepare a meal and enjoy each other's company, they see it as that. At the end of an entire week, they will feel good about themselves over what they can accomplish together."

 

In the three troops I've been involved with, the adults functioned as a patrol to set the example for the boy patrols. For us adults, the best part of any outing is the cooking and eating. We joke, we play and we get to know one another. It is a bonding experience. I don't know how many times the boys have complained about how much better we adults eat and how much easier we have it and faster we are like it is some form of magic that they don't possess. We always point out to them that we all pay the same amount as them for patrol food on the outing and they can cook the same things we cook. We use the same exact equipment they do. We also talk to them about the comaraderie we experience working together. They have been taught how to plan menus and cook. Unfortunately, they are teenage boys and THEY see the cooking and cleaning as busy work that takes away from their "fun". Trying to get them to realize that it is a big part of the "fun" seems to be one of the more difficult tasks....even when they have been taught and see it modeled. Eventually, as they get older, hopefully it will click. But for many 11, 12, 13 and 14 year old boys, it is busy work.

 

You know, you can lead a horse to water.......

 

I knew of one troop where the boys got so lazy, they wouldn't even boil water for their Raman noodles. They ate it right out of the package dry. Obviously, there was a lot to work on in that troop beyond just patrol spirit.

 

[Venividi]

SR540Beaver,

 

I hope the referenced comment wasn't preceived as disparaging. It wasn't meant that way. I do believe that cultures develop in groups over time. Our troop attended the same summer camp Gonzo1 mentions. At the end of the week, they are all upbeat and happy and want to go back. They had fun. And we saw it carry over to weekend campouts. When I first started with the troop after my son crossed over, I was impressed with the scout's meals. They often ate as good as the adults, with dinners such cornish game hens, baked potatos and sweet corn baked in a dutch oven, lasagna, etc. My son's new scout patrol wanted to make hotdogs and burgers, but over time, they learned and moved up to better meals. The culture of the troop was a big part of that, and the week of cooking at summer camp contributed to that by putting them in a position to really learn the skills required. Again, I reiterate that this isn't the only way, but it was what we found to be most effective for us.

 

A related story: Our troop used the woodburning stoves supplied by the camp rather than propane stoves, which added some additional challenge and need for teamwork. We had one patrol of mostly 3rd year scouts that took pride in a week of cooking using only one match per day for lighting the fire in their stove, using embers remaining from the previous meal to start their lunch and dinner fire. Especially after other patrols switched to the gas stoves after a heavy rainfall made lighting wood difficult.

 

 

[Venividi]

Oh, one more thing. I like your story of the scouts choosing to eat raman noodles dry rather than heat up water. I can relate to that. Our scouts would typically plan on donuts for Sunday morning breakfast in order to avoid cooking. Saturday breakfast was typically breakfast burritos once they learned that cleanup was a lot easier. And I could see our scouts eating dry raman noodles if someone had thought of it. But for summer camp, patrol cooking typically was only an issue for the first year scouts.

[SR540Beaver]

Venividi: "I hope the referenced comment wasn't preceived as disparaging."

 

Not at all. Good conversation!

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 2007.

 

Thank you very much for your welcome, but I have been here for a while already. In fact, I probably volunteer as much time to my local BSA Council as you.

 

Your emphasis on "AMERICA" is misleading.

 

If McDonald's had a monopoly like the BSA, then a SR540Burger would answer critics of fried burgers by taunting "Welcome to the McDonald's of AMERICA in 2007. Broiled burgers are old-fashioned! It may have been possible to broil a burger 100 years ago but tastes change and nobody likes that anymore! Modern kids want fried burgers with fried leadership development lessons!"

 

There is no inescapable or inevitable "American" or "2007" characteristic that forces us to abandon the Patrol Method.

 

In a nutshell, the history of the Patrol Method in the BSA can be summed up as three periods:

 

1910-1923 -> Patrol Leaders are kept powerless by the Scoutmaster: YMCA theory.

 

1923-1971 -> Patrol Leaders run the Troop and the SPL serves at their pleasure: The introduction of the Patrol Method in 1923 and its rise as "The ONLY Method!" under William Hillcourt.

 

1972-2007 -> Patrol Leaders' power redistributed to TROOP SPL, TROOP Guide, and regular TROOP elections driven by the need for everyone to "get their turn" at a POR to meet artificial Leadership Development Advancement requirements: The invention of the "Leadership Development" Method of Scouting in 1972.

 

I would find it hard to believe that an innovator like Baden-Powell would expect American Scouting in 2007 to be run exactly as he did it in Britain in 1907. Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

"Exactly" is a straw-man argument that implies that Scouts with kerosene lanterns and horse carts are the only alternative to Boy Scout Factory Camps that do not use the Patrol Method. Baden-Powell Scouting is a subset of Traditional Scouting which plays Baden-Powell's game of Scouting as it was played before the world-wide WOSM modernization movement in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It makes changes in the 1960s program only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), 3) Lightweight Equipment, 4) National Cultural & Climate Variations (Native Cultures, Uniforms designed for the local outdoor climate, etc.).

 

Baden-Powell as a Scouting philosopher would support the Patrol System in all Scout outings:

 

I strongly advise small camps of about half a dozen Patrols: each in a separate tent and on separate ground, so that the Scouts do not feel themselves to be part of a big herd, but members of independent responsible units.

 

Patrols should be kept intact under all circumstances.

 

[Footsteps of the Founder, page 107]

 

If you want to operate that way, there is nothing stopping you and the "BPUSA" from doing so.

 

Um, nothing but the unlimited legal resources of a wealthy corporate monopoly.

 

BTW, I took your suggestion of calling their toll free number to ask them some questions. The number is disconnected and they have no website.

 

It is not disconnected but they are having technical problems. I can provide a phone number or Email address to anyone who is actually considering establishing a Group. Just send me a private Email.

 

It appears that the First Tarrant Group in Fort Worth, TX is the only Baden Powell troop in the US according to Google searches and any foreign BP sites I can find.

 

No, but no small alternative association is ever going to win a numbers debate.

 

Local BPSA Groups should avoid an Internet presence for the time being.

 

Perhaps you could channel your creative efforts into drafting a Scoutmaster Minute that explains to Scouts how they can judge how correct an idea is by the number of hits a Google search returns. This will help you get started: "A Scout is Trustworthy" = 16,200 Websites; "Dumb and Dumber" 1,090,000 Websites :-)

 

First Tarrant has not updated their website since 2002, so I'm not even sure how viable they are.

 

Apparently they are better at lashing pioneering towers than at updating their Website.

 

I thought you were a BP commissioner and would know their status.

 

Like everyone else here, I speak only for myself and not for any association with which I am affiliated.

 

I assume that your curiosity is a reflection of the fact that your love of Scouting as a Movement is so great that you want to be able to direct congregations that are looking for alternatives to the BSA to other Scouting associations. I suggest that they contact BPSA-USA themselves.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting is for Groups like those who formed the very first Troops in the USA before there was a giant Scouting corporation. They must have a pioneering spirit and a reason to do so.

 

At best Traditioal Scouting will only be a small niche market but we can discuss how Baden-Powell's Patrol System works, and for old-timers contrast that with how William Hillcourt's Patrol Method works. We can discuss how Baden-Powell's Ideals, Outdoor, Advancement, and Uniform "Methods" differ from those of the BSA, and how the so-called "Eight Methods" are only a theory of how Scouting works.

 

So these discussions may have some little value to readers who are interested in Scouting as a movement and wish to view their own program from a completely different perspective.

 

Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing. They want it to be the cherry on top.

 

By the same logic they should abandon the "Team Method" if their school gets to the playoffs. They play on teams all season long, what is to be gained by doing the same thing after the regular season ends? How is that going to strengthen their "bond"? If school teams stopped playing against each other they could all relax, get to know the members on the other team and the referees on a personal level. They would all feel good about themselves over what they can accomplish together. For instance they could use playoffs game time to visit an ice cream parlor and get an ice cream sundae with a cherry on top!

 

Isn't that cherry what being on a team is all about?

 

Kudu

 

"The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!"

 

--Roland Phillips

 

[Gonzo1]

Kudu,

I disagree about BSA having a monopoly. While the BP-USA whatever may be only the first Tarrant, there also groups like Scouting for All, the girl allowing, atheist accepting, gay loving group.

 

I agree, BSA is pretty big compared to them. Besides, you could start your own group.

 

[Trevorum]

Gonzo, you are mistaken. Scouting for All is an advocacy organization only. It does not sponsor or charter individual units. "The group seeks to influence the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to serve and include as participating members all youth and adult leaders, regardless of their spiritual belief, gender or sexual orientation."

 

Tone of voice does not translate well in these forums, but I am sure you did not intend discourtesy in your phrasing, "gay-loving". It could be taken that way though.

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Eamonn writes:

 

It's a shame you felt the need to add the little digs in about Wood Badge.

 

Wood Badge needs more than a just a few "little digs," Eamonn. To return the BSA Patrol Method to the BSA would require a major excavation of Wood Badge.

 

No discussion of FACTORY Scouting should ignore that the content of Wood Badge is a business course for FACTORY managers.

 

Of all the people on Earth, those who hold the Wood Badge should be the most concerned about the Patrol Method.

 

Of all the Scouting forums on Earth, Scouter.Com (with its Site Dedication to William Hillcourt on the lower right hand side of your computer screen at this very minute) should be the place where his real (that is the pre-1972) BSA Patrol Method is discussed.

 

For all of the rousing renditions of "Back to Gilwell" sung at Wood Badge, no effort is made to understand Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" upon which the song is based.

 

What Wood Badge produces then are not inquirers into the nature of Scouting and a resulting informed volunteer force dedicated to preserving real Scouting, but rather "enforcers" of whatever hair-brained pop-leadership fad is popular in the air-conditioned corporate world at any given time.

 

This enforcer mentality only increases with the number of Beads one wears. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the hostility with which most (if not all) 4-Beaders fought against Scouts wearing nylon zip-off uniform pants since their invention ten years ago.

 

The irony is that at least three of the most highly-placed senior BSA executives in Irving Texas recognized the significance of this advancement in outdoor gear right away and tried to introduce them as an official BSA Uniform as soon as they appeared in the high-end camping gear market of the mid 1990s.

 

I wonder if it took ten years to finally produce the Switchbacks at least in part due to the fierce loyalty with which 4-Beaders framed the brain-dead Uniform Method of Scouting in terms of "A Scout is Obedient" to the shockingly inferior indoor dress-designer FACTORY product forced upon Scouts through Scout Spirit and BOR blackmail that holds the Advancement Method hostage to the misunderstood Uniform Method.

 

If it takes another ten years for the BSA to finally offer a breathable nylon Uniform Shirt, how long will it take after 2017 for the first 4-Beader to realize that the Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method? I can tell you exactly: As soon as some fat corporate executive wearing too much after-shave and sitting in an air-conditioned corporate office in the deep south TELLS him that the Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method.

 

The day that Wood Badge has any Scouting credibility is the day that everyone who holds the Wood Badge knows as much about Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt as they do about indoor corporate gurus like Kenneth Blanchard and can answer the following question correctly:

 

Which of the following quotes was never said by Baden-Powell?

 

1) Scouting is a Game with a Purpose.

 

2) The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!

 

3) Take a minute every once in a while out of your day to look at your performance, and see whether or not your behavior matches your goal

 

I challenge you all to find a SINGLE 4-Beader in the ENTIRE United States who does not read my posts but knows the correct answer.

 

Kudu

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Wow, rather cranky aren't we?

 

We had our annual Wood Badge reunion this past Saturday. You'd be surprised how many 2, 3 and 4 bead "enforcers" had on their Switchbacks just like me.