Factory Scouting

[eagle90]

AMen, Gonzo1! Well said!

 

Dale

[jr56]

This subject has been discussed in my troop at length. The final consensus was that scouts get plenty of opportunities to cook as patrols on their weekend campouts throughout the course of the year.

Summer camp gives them a different perspective, giving them the opportunity to earn some merit badges as well as participating in the various camp wide events.

[OldGreyEagle]

I understand reasons for patrol cooking, but then again, I think Mess Hall dining has its place. Having all the scouts in camp together for announcements is handy, although I could see someone claiming destruction of the Patrol Method at the expense of expediency and I can see their point. I see how having the camp together promotes a more community like atmosphere as all the troops see one another and scouts are able to converse with them and the staff. Some of the best memories of camp are the songs/cheers done at the end of each meal as the staff reveal their personalities. I know mess hall dining isnt the best, but it does have some redeeming characteristics.

[local1400]

We ate family-style at tables for ten at my camp. Staff members were seated at each table.We could get "bumped" by a Unit leader but they usually ate with other leaders. Staff members set the manners example at the tables and the Scouts really looked up to us. You talked about where they from, how they like camp, etc... Getting to eat with different Scouts each day was very rewarding. It is an experience that you can't get anywhere else. Hey, I'm all for the Patrol Method, but dining wth strangers who all share one common bond is the best! OGE has mentioned some of the other benefits as well and as usual he is right.(This message has been edited by local1400)

[mtm25653]

The summer camps our troop goes to have "high adventure" programs for older boys, to keep them interested and challenged. My son has done "Mountain Man" for 2 years (and has applied to be on staff this summer) - black powder rifle, tomahawk throwing, blacksmithing, cooking all their own meals in cast iron on an open fire. Other boys in the troop have gone on a 5-6 day canoeing trek, fish camp (all fishing, all-day). I'm pretty sure both of these involve cooking on their own. Other local camps offer a mixed week - mountain biking, canoeing, rock climbing, etc. (a different activity each day) - in this case, I think the boys eat centrally for breakfast and dinner, and take a trail lunch. All of these give the older boys a challenge beyond the typical weekend campout (which for our troop frequently involves backpacking, rock climbing, canoe trips, historic trails, etc.)

 

I agree that some of the merit badges at a typical camp would be better done away from camp - first aid, for example, or the citizenship badges. But what about swimming - there is no indoor swimming pool in our entire county (70 miles across), and the only public pool is on the opposite side of the county. Or rifle or shotgun - we have experienced leaders to teach tehm, but the place to do the shooting (on a range) is more problematic.

 

We also like the first year scout program - by summer camp, the new boys have been in a new scout patrol in our troop for 3 1/2 months and have been on 3-4 campouts, one focusing on basic scout skills. The new scout program puts them in patrols for the week, and they get more focus on the basics (which our older boys have taught them, but they get bored/tired of focusing just on basic scout skills for 1/3 of the year.

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with Gonzo, eh?

 

I've seen plenty of dining hall camps, and some patrol cookin' camps, and some patrol cookin' in a dining hall camp.

 

In terms of Scoutin', and positive effect on da boys, patrol cookin' is the way to go, eh? As is keepin' patrols together and not foldin' 'em in to Troop Method or Camp Method.

 

Da problem is that our patrol cookin' camps are fadin' out. As close as I can tell, that's because so many troops are so Troop Method driven. SR540's right, eh? The demand is for the catered dining hall and MB experience. But that's because so many troop programs are so weak, that their kids (and adults) wouldn't be able to execute patrol cookin' for 5 days and still have time to play. And probably because their MB programs are equally weak, and expect badges to come from fast-and-easy classes, eh?

 

I've generally found that in a troop with a strong program, da PLC prefers independent patrol campin'.

[Venividi]

local1400

 

You just jogged a memory of summer camp about 10 years ago. At our patrol cooking summer camp, scouts could (were expected to) invite staff members to dinner, cooked by their patrol. Each staff member wore a totem, and gave it to the first scout that invited him/her. (The staff members got their totems back at dinner).

 

One day one of our scouts got the idea to invite as many staff members as possible to dinner that night. Probably collected a over a dozen totems. Unfortunately, it was the night of the campout for wilderness MB, and OA ordeal overnight. Most of the troop were on one of these, including the scout that had done the inviting. He almost missed his ordeal overnight to keep his commitment to all the staff that he had invited for dinner. The staff members sent him on his way. As there were more staff in our camp than there were scouts, the staff helped the scouts prepare dinner. There was some great bonding going on that night.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Venividi,

What?

I know I haven't been active with OA for a while, a long while, but soing OA ordeal at summer camp? I know it's probably better in the OA thread, but shouldn't OA ordeals be done over OA weekends? More than just sleeping under the stars, more about inward reflection, service, etc.

 

Now that's factory scouting! MB's, wilderness survival I can see and OA all at once, Whew, why plan another weekend, just keep cramming it in.

 

[Venividi]

Gonzo1,

 

Yes, our council's OA does offer the ordeal at summer camp. They also offer two OA weekends; one in Spring and one if Fall. I certainly see your point - convenience and expediency vs. making the effort to schedule the OA weekend into ones schedule. I don't know the reason, since it has been that way as long as I am aware. Perhaps it was offered to encourage more troops to attend the council camp, since many troops prefer to go out of council to avoid patrol cooking.

[SR540Beaver]

Having worked with three troops, I can honestly say I've never encountered a patrol who wanted to do patrol cooking at summer camp. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it this way. In researching summer camps, I've seen camps that are dining hall only, patrol cooking only, a combination of both or a choice between the two.

 

As I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with patrol cooking at summer camp. however, I'm not sure I buy the arguments for it as strengthening the patrol. The patrols in out troop have weekly patrol meetings each week at the troop meeting. Periodically they have outside patrols meetings when they feel a need. They always camp as a patrol within their own seperate site and do all of their own cooking and KP. Heck, one of our troop traditions is the annual turkey cookout in November where we dig a 30 foot long, 3 foot wide and 3 foot deep ditch and build and feed a fire from midnight to 6 AM. Each patrol has to prepare their own turkey and all the fixin's for their patrol and family members who come out to camp on Saturday afternoon. They get plenty of patrol cooking experience thruout the year and are not looking for more during summer camp. They would rather focus on having fun at camp and making it a different experience than what they do every other month of the year. Doing the dining hall thing is part of what they enjoy about summer camp.

[Stosh]

Tom Slade: AT TEMPLE CAMP, by Percy Reese Fitzhugh, explicitly states that that early camp had a mess hall where the food was prepared, but the boys ate at patrols around the area. For those of you who have not read the book, some of the people involved in the book were characters like Tom Slade, Roy Blakeley, Westy Martin, and PeeWee Harris. This early literature was intended to promote the scout program in the early years of scouting in America. If the patrol method was adhered to it wasn't all that strict when it came to the mess hall.

[Gonzo1]

Local1400,

I'm sure I'd enjoy the dinner, driving a gazillion miles from Georgia to Hew Hampshire, well, I'm not so sure. I know there are pro's and con's to Mess Halls and patrol cooking. Personally, I'd rather see the patrols working together, SPL leading and the boys can still have fun, earn some badges.

 

I wouldn't mind trading the CSP though, send me a PM with contact info, etc, yada yada...... We'll trade.

 

 

 

[Kudu]

jblake47 writes:

 

Tom Slade: AT TEMPLE CAMP, by Percy Reese Fitzhugh, explicitly states that that early camp had a mess hall where the food was prepared....

 

Um, Tom Slade was a fictional character who was also a "parachute jumper" and a "motorcycle dispatch rider" in the Great War. Perhaps poor Tom suffered shell-shock and confused his Scout camp memories with those of eating in army mess halls while "Boy Scouting" "With the Boys Over There."

 

If the patrol method was adhered to it wasn't all that strict when it came to the mess hall.

 

Back then the Patrol Method was not adhered to at all in the BSA was it?

 

The BSA did not adopt the Patrol Method as a "radical change in the management of troops" until September 21, 1923, thirteen years after the May 3rd, 1910 meeting in which the conservative Christian YMCA convinced William D. Boyce of the need for a Scouting monopoly in the United States.

 

Understand that Tom Slade: At Temple Camp was written in 1917 at the time that the BSA Handbook for Scout Masters presented as gospel YMCA theory that was the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's Patrol System.

 

For instance the official BSA Patrol "Grouping Standards" suggested that the "Scout Master" divide the Troop up into Patrols according to social class:

 

A simple and rather satisfactory way of grouping is by the, school boy or wage-earning boy standard. If the boy happens to be in the grammar school, he may be grouped with boys of his own educational advancement; so with the boys who are in the secondary or high schools, and the same may be said of working boys who are forced to earn their own livelihood.

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/group_standard.htm

 

Is this not the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's successful 1907 Brownsea Island experiment in which he drew half of the Scouts each from the two social classes by which the BSA now divided them? Was the rejection of the division of Scouts by their social class not the principle reason for the Scout Uniform?

 

Another one of the BSA's official Patrol "Grouping Standards" was the "Height and Weight Standard:"

 

If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight.

 

Presumably the kind of people who now marvel at the wisdom of the BSA and attack other Scouters for expressing skepticism about the BSA's rules stood dutifully by the door of their Troop rooms with a tape measure and a scale to make sure that no boy in the under "fifty-six and a half inches in height" Patrol had disqualified himself from membership in his Patrol by growing to 56 3/4 inches or 111 pounds.

 

Likewise at the time when Tom Slade: At Temple Camp was published, the BSA's understanding of the role of Patrol Leaders was exactly wrong:

 

The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

Even someone who has been to One Minute Manager Wood Badge should be able to understand that the BSA then and now adopts weird anti-Patrol System theories that have nothing to do with Real Scouting.

 

SR540Beaver writes:

 

Having worked with three troops, I can honestly say I've never encountered a patrol who wanted to do patrol cooking at summer camp.

 

The fact that a Scouter can honestly say he has never encountered a Patrol that wanted to do Patrol cooking at summer camp should not be surprising. The official "Grouping Standards" and "Six Principles of Boy-Work" cited above were distributed to 10,000 BSA Scouters for their comments before publication.

 

None of these 10,000 BSA Scouters wondered why Baden-Powell's Patrol System was missing:

 

The preparation of the first issue of this book proceeded slowly in spite of the insistent demands from the Field for it, in order that the final book might represent the best thought and procedure. It was published first in a series of pamphlets, which were made available to the Field and, in 1913, 10,000 copies in proof form were printed. The Executive Board authorized the distribution of these, without cost, to the men actively engaged in Scouting at that time, and authorized the sale of the proof edition at $.25 each. At that time, there was considerable concern as to whether the book would meet the needs of all the men in the Field. By circular letter and through the magazine SCOUTING, all of the active Scoutmasters and other Scout Officials, were urged to submit their suggestions as to changes. No radical changes were suggested, and in 1914 the first edition was printed

 

[The History of the Boy Scouts of America, pages 397-398].

 

I'm sure that like SR540Beaver who has never met a Patrol that wanted to use the real Patrol System at summer camp, all 10,000 of these Scouters could honestly say that they had never met a Patrol Leader who (contrary to BSA dogma):

 

1) Wanted authority in the supervision of his Patrol.

 

2) Believed that the success of the troop affairs and supervision of Patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Patrol Leaders.

 

3) That the Patrol System did not present a danger of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head.

 

4) That the activities of the Patrol should be left to the judgment of the Patrol Leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the Patrol and Troop, that the Patrol Leaders, not the whole group, should reach a decision in regard to the plan.

 

Now as then if the Patrol System rather than non-Scouting theory was the subject of training such as Wood Badge, 10,000 Scouters would not strive to be the one minute managers of summer camp Scouting Factories.

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Kudu,

 

Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 2007. I would find it hard to believe that an innovator like Baden-Powell would expect American Scouting in 2007 to be run exactly as he did it in Britian in 1907. Maybe, but I doubt it. If you want to operate that way, there is nothing stopping you and the "BPUSA" from doing so. BTW, I took your suggestion of calling their toll free number to ask them some questions. The number is disconnected and they have no website. It appears that the First Tarrant Group in Fort Worth, TX is the only Baden Powell troop in the US according to Google searches and any foreign BP sites I can find. First Tarrant has not updated their website since 2002, so I'm not even sure how viable they are. I thought you were a BP commisioner and would know their status.

[Eamonn]

Kudu,

Thanks for the history lesson . No!! I'm not joking.

It's a shame you felt the need to add the little digs in about Wood Badge.

As I think you know, I was a Scout and Scout Leader in the UK, mostly after the Advanced Party Report. I left England in 1984 and really don't know that much about the changes that have been made since.

Scouting in the UK never seemed to be as organized as it was here in the USA.

I haven't seen the new offices at Gilwell Park, but was a frequent visitor to the offices at Baden Powell House and the one at Buckingham Palace Gate.

The National Staff at that time numbered a lot less than the Staff in a large Council in the USA.

At one time I remember reading that the Scout Association was among the top 10 land owners in the UK.I found that to be amazing when you consider that the Crown, the Church of England and the National Trust are also in that group.

Unlike here in the US, where the BSA owns very large camps and parcels of land,many of the donations were very small parcels of land.

A couple of years back OJ and I joined the 2nd Cuddingtons' Scout Troop for a few days at their Summer Camp just outside of Nottingham Forest. The camp was owned by the local Scout District and set in eight acres. They had loaded up all their gear and taken the Scouts away for a week.

Photos of their 2006 camp to Buddens, Dorset can be found on their web site:

http://www.2ndcuddingtonscouts.org.uk/index2frameset.htm

As I posted earlier in this thread until I came to the US, I'd never experienced a Council Summer Camp.

My main concern about them is that they are just so darn expensive to operate.

When it comes to "Selling" a camp to the Scouts. I kind of think we the adults are at times maybe a little less than honest.

I know last year I "Sold" our kayaking trip with the 50 miler award, wildlife, porpoises and fun. Along the way I might not till nearer the date mentioned cat-holes, trail type food, cooking and all the work involved!!

So I think Beav might have hit the nail on the head, when the Scouts opt for the mess hall over doing the cooking and clean up.

Lets be honest how many Scouts really want to spend time washing up?

At one time some bright spark in our Council came up with the idea of having a computer lab at camp!! Needless to say I wasn't for the idea!!

I really haven't paid any attention to the number of Troops that have signed up for our Council camp this year. Last year the cost went up by $25.00 per camper. With the rise in the minimum wage here in PA. I think it will have to go up again this year. Already I'm hearing that some Troops are now planning not to attend the camp, because they can offer a cheaper alternative. Of course this will become a catch 22 situation, less campers means less income, so the price goes up which means less campers... Till one day the camp can't open. All this while the Council is trying to raise a million dollars for a new dining hall??

Councils seem to be having a hard time making camps pay their way. About ten years back it seemed that Cub Worlds would help keep Scout camps affordable, but with the decline in Cub Scout membership? I'm not sure that will help.

In our area it seems that the weekly Scout meeting has been replaced by the weekly Merit Badge Class, Troops are doing more and more merit badges in house. I wonder if one day the big factory will just not be needed as the reason to attend will no longer exist?

Already I see that our Council has cut back from seven weeks to six. This will save money, but the older guys who need the money for college just can't make enough money over the summer when the weeks are just not there. The end result will be a much younger less experienced camp staff.

I'm unsure if the smaller Council camps will survive?

Eamonn.