Factory Scouting

[Kudu]

 

Lisabob writes:

 

We talked about this the other night and agreed that we would promote our own camp first and foremost, but that if there are new scouts who simply aren't going to go to camp with us then we'll encourage them to at least do this.

 

Congratulations Lisabob on deciding to run your own Troop Summer Camp (if I understand your decision correctly).

 

T-2-1 programs are just a subset of Merit Badge Factory Summer Camp which in turn (if you think about it objectively) is really just a subset of Eagle Factory Scouting.

 

The basic idea behind Factory Scouting is to gut the Patrol Method to make Advancement toward Eagle more efficient. "Trail to Eagle" says it all.

 

Even if your Troop Summer Camp is only a "long weekend," you at least have the opportunity to introduce your new Scouts to real Scouting which is based on the Patrol Method. At a bare minimum this would include 1) Patrols Significantly Separated: at least 100 yards is the ideal; 2) Patrol Cooking: ALL meals cooked in the Scouts' permanent Patrols; and 3) Tenderfoot Instruction: ALL Tenderfoot instruction, testing, and (ideally) sign-offs done by the (older Scout) Patrol Leader of their own permanent Patrol (rather than the Troop Method Troop Guide, Troop Instructor, or adult).

 

Troop Summer Camp is also a rare opportunity to do some real Scouting for the older Scouts who are not Patrol Leaders. Consider a scaled-down version of Bob Geier's "Non-Traditional Summer Camp" (actually in "Traditional Scouting" this IS Traditional Summer Camp):

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm

 

You may discover that your Scouts prefer real Scouting to Factory Scouting and if you allow the PLC to make these kind of decisions, they may vote to expand your Troop Summer Camp experiment into next year's week-long Summer Camp.

 

For those who prefer adult-dominated, school schedule Summer Camps, the following is a pretty cool alternate to typical Council adult-dominated, school schedule Factory Summer Camps:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/trooprun.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[Lisabob]

Sorry to let you down Kudu but no, we are not running our own summer camp program this year - we are going to an established BSA camp in North Carolina. We have, however, done exactly what you are suggesting on occasion in the past. There are pros and cons to everything, including running one's own program. As for the camp we're attending this year, our scouts chose it and they are looking forward to it.

[Stosh]

Hmm, it sounds as if factory scouting is a negative thing. Isn't the end product of valid citizen leaders the whole purpose of scouting? I have worked in manufacturing/factory over the years and if one wishes to produce a consistant program there must be a consistent process. To open it up for major variations will produce major variations in the quality of the end product.

 

I think merit badge factory summer camps, supplemented with a valid troop experience for the week produces the best program. A troop can't do it all, nor can a summer camp be expected to provide everything for the whole week.

 

The focus on the advancement of the individual is only a part of the scouting program. If one thinks a scout deserves Eagle when he has done nothing to support the program of patrol method and communal success, then they don't deserve the rank. Individuals are not leaders. To provide the scout with leadership abilities is supplemented by the scouting program, and that guidance, opportunities, and experience beyond the program make up real meat and potatoes of the situation. If I need to get from point A to point B, it really doesn't make any difference if I walk, run, or drive a BMW. The means (factory) is not as important as the Eagle (product).

[Stosh]

One must also temper the excitement of troop run summer camps with the fact that there are troops out there who do not have the expertise to pull it off.

 

I know of one troop that tried and everyone began packing up by Wednesday and the remaining survivors abandoned the camp on Thursday. That was a whole years worth of planning/programming down the drain.

 

Our adult leaders picked the BSA camp this year and the attendance at camp has gone up over last year when the kids picked. Sometimes an adult's suggestion can carry new opportunities for those scouts who don't know the questions, let alone the answers.

[Eamonn]

I don't see Rank advancement as the goal of Scouting.

It is a method.

At times in my opinion it seems that we are guilty of making things far bigger than they really are.

I know some really wonderful youth members who for different reasons will never become Eagle Scouts, earn Venturing Silver or Quartermaster. This in no way means that they are failures or that we have have failed them.

Some of the best adult leaders I know never made Eagle or Queen's Scout.

OJ now serves on our Council Camping Committee. Without any input from me!! It seems that he has been trying to push for making Summer Camp more about what he sees as "Real Scouting" and less about running from class to class.

The nice thing about camp is that the Scouts are there. No not turning up because Grand-ma called twenty minutes before the meeting or the gang is all going to a movie.

While with a little effort I'm sure just about any activity a camp offers can be found some place else, it is nice to have the opportunity to use the facilities a camp has without all the hassle.Having the pool, the lake, the shooting sports ranges is nice. For the Scouts and the adults who don't have to go "Out of house" to find or look for these facilities and opportunities.

Still I think it's a shame when the success or the lack of success is measured by the Merit Badge Count.

My crystal ball is out of order!! But I think looking to the future camps will need to change. So many other organizations and schools now go to camp and more and more Cub Scouts are attending long term resident camps, that just living in a tent isn't the adventure it once was. Add that to the declining membership and camps will have to start thinking out of the box to offer more exciting programs that appeal to the youth members and their parents.

Back in 1977 I found myself in a lot of hot water for calling the Scouts in the BSA a bunch of softies!! I happened to mention this to someone from the press at a reception given by the Mayor of Philadelphia it hit the news wires and as they say the stuff hit the fan!!

I had just spent the summer working as an International Camp Counselor. Seeing Scouts arrive at a camp where all the tents were up and waiting for them, seeing Scouts eating meals prepared and served to them in dining hall, was just not my idea of Scouting!! It was a far cry from the kind of Scouting I was used to.

Back then I was very (note the word very!!) young! Over time I can see the merits of both ways of doing things and would hope that Troops work toward some kind of balance.

I would hope that Councils start to be more accommodating to Troops who want to maybe not buy into the entire Summer Camp Council Program and who want to maybe participate in parts of what is offered or maybe want to just camp and not be part of what is offered. This might be dependent on the age of the Scouts and the skills of the adults.

Like it or not Council run camps are a business. If the parents see the value of a camp by looking at the Merit Badges offered, Councils will push Merit Badges. I see this as shooting ourselves in the foot. We will end up with Scouts becoming Eagle Scouts more rapidly an at a younger age and then leaving the program. Mickey Mouse Merit Badges like finger printing offered by camps is not going to hold the interest of the Scouts older than 12 or 13.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Kudu,

 

Taking your kids to a "Merit Badge Factory Summer Camp" is kind of like taking your kid to the local megaplex theater. A little guidance and supervision in choices made is a good thing. Checking on the quality of the choice made is also a good thing. Good scouter"ing" is akin to good parenting.

 

Our boys make the decision on which camp they go to. The SM has veto power if he believes the camp can not deliver the quality we desire for the troop. I once had a very small and very young troop wanting to select a summer camp simply because they offered the Golf MB and they thought that was cool. The camp was rather lacking in many other aspects.

 

Many troops simply don't have the resources available to them to put on their own show. I've read your posts on this topic before and you are more than aware of the logistics involved in pulling something like that off. If you can do it, GREAT. If you can't, you do the next best thing.

 

Summer camp as it exists today has evolved out of a supply and demand need. Some camps do it better than others and some units exercise control over how it is utilized better than others.

 

If summer camp were a bad thing or were not meeting the needs of units, they would die away.

[scoutldr]

"If summer camp were a bad thing or were not meeting the needs of units, they would die away."

 

...or be sold to fund executive salaries.

[SR540Beaver]

.....or keep the council liquid.

[local1400]

Summer camp was the highlight for eight summers for me growing up. I have made many friendships from boys who are all now men from all over our state. I liked having tents all set up giving you room to stretch out and dining halls serving great food so you spent no time on meal prep/cleanup. That was reserved for our troops monthly campout. We didn't have money growing up (come to think of it, I still dont!) but I worked hard to pay for Scout camp. As a family we could not afford trips so this was my Disney vacation. Camp is what you make it. As a teenaged staffer we worked hard, long days to deliver a quality program. Ever worked 148 hours a week for $100.? I didn't do it for the money. You have to love camp. I did. I would do it forever except it won't pay the rent. And at the end of the week the ONLY think important is did Johnny enjoy his week? If you have never worked at a council camp then apply this summer I am sure they can use you. Local may be crazy, but he's ardent about Camp!

[Eamonn]

My thoughts about "The Council Summer Camp" have changed over the years. Kinda like my idea of cooking at camp.

Back when I was a little Scout we cooked entirely on wood fires.

When I became a Leader we started taking camp stoves for emergency use only.

Later it became too easy to use the stove for my early morning beverage (Tea at that time)

Over time we added stoves to the Patrol Boxes and started to teach the Scouts how to use the stoves along with the fire.

I think we need to look at summer camp the same way.

Sure it's nice to take the Scouts to camp at Friendly Farmer Gilles Field, spent the time doing things the way they were once done. That is a lot of fun.

But it's nice to take the Scouts to the Council Summer Camp and use what the camp has to offer.

My hope is that maybe we can expose our Scouts to both.

Eamonn.

 

[Kudu]

jblake47 writes:

 

Hmm, it sounds as if factory scouting is a negative thing... I have worked in manufacturing/factory over the years and if one wishes to produce a consistant program there must be a consistent process. To open it up for major variations will produce major variations in the quality of the end product.

 

That is a keeper!

 

Isn't the end product of valid citizen leaders the whole purpose of scouting?

 

No, and that is where I disagree with most American Scouters: I believe that Real Scouting is primarily a GAME. Try to imagine that!

 

The problem with the "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" bogus Baden-Powell quote is that it places far too much emphasis on what you call the "end product" of Scouting.

 

This in turn inevitably leads to an emphasis on the bean-counter (Advancement, Leadership Development, and Uniform) Methods, always at the expense of Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" or William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method."

 

I think merit badge factory summer camps, supplemented with a valid troop experience for the week produces the best program.

 

Most Summer Camps are exactly that: a Merit Badge Factory with Troop experience. Troop experience is the Troop Method. The Game of Scouting is a game played by Patrols.

 

The Game of Baseball is far more efficient if you skip all that hitting the ball with the bat stuff and get the teams together to run around the bases.

 

The Game of Football is far more efficient if you skip all that bumping into each other stuff and get the teams together to run the length of the football field.

 

The Game of Scouting is far more efficient if you skip all that Patrol cooking stuff and get the Patrols together to run to catered cooking and Factory T-2-1 & Merit Badge classes on the "Trail to Eagle."

 

Likewise as an industrialist you must realize that if "valid citizen leaders is the whole purpose of Scouting," then certainly ALL of the Methods are up for grabs, not just the Patrol Method!

 

Other "Methods of Scouting" have been discarded in the past including the First Method of Scouting, "The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science)". Since that bit the dust in 1972, why don't we act like factory owners and apply science to the "consistent process" of Scouting?

 

Try sitting the Scouts down for classes in citizenship with an objective test of the so-called "Aims of Scouting." Then apply the same objective test to Scouts who waste their time outdoors in Patrols (objectivity was the whole purpose of the Personal Growth Method introduced in 1972). Using this, the ultimate bean-counter Method as it was intended to be used, the Official BSA test of a Scout's Personal Development in meeting the "Citizenship Aim" was

 

The boy knows something of his heritage as an American and is proud of it.

 

He understands to some degree American social, economic, and governmental systems.

 

He understands and can use skills of leadership to lead a group to a successful outcome.

 

He demonstrates concern for and interest in others.

 

He has some knowledge of cultures and social groups other than his own and is able to understand something of what it is like to belong to another such group.

 

He is aware of community organizations and what they do.

 

He understands the ethnic and social situation in his neighborhood.

 

He contributes in some way to the improvement of the environment in which he lives.

 

He wisely uses property belonging to himself and others.

 

He explores vocational and hobby possibilities for himself.

 

The Official BSA objective tests for the other two "Aims of Scouting" can be found at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm

 

If this "Purpose of Scouting" thing is more important than Scouting as a mere Game played in Patrols, then why not get more scientific, move the whole thing into classrooms, and just skip all the mosquitoes?

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

Many troops simply don't have the resources available to them to put on their own show. I've read your posts on this topic before and you are more than aware of the logistics involved in pulling something like that off.

 

As I understood it, the option being discussed was an extended weekend "mini" Summer Camp for new Scouts. If you limit the "water front" to wading in a creek, I do not see how an extended weekend cooking in significantly separated Patrols and working on T-2-1 requirements with a Patrol Leader is beyond the resources available to ANY Scout Troop. Of course it does mean that you need a real Patrol Leader, not a one-minute-manager :-/

 

This extended weekend is also a practical place to experiment with some of Bob Geier's "roll your own" Troop Summer Camp ideas (referenced above) for older Scouts on a limited trial basis.

 

If you can't, you do the next best thing.

 

If its not done in Patrols, its not Scouting: A first-rate citizenship training program maybe, but not Scouting. The difference between Patrol camping and fake Scouting is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.

 

The bottom line is Patrol Cooking. We had to do the "next best thing" once. Yes we compromised! We had a Patrol of Scouts who had been in Scouting for only a few weeks before leaving for summer camp, and no available real Patrol Leader. We had an older Scout show them how to cook, and the adults even washed their breakfast dishes in addition to their own when necessary so that the new Scouts could get to their first of five Factory Merit Badge Classes as a Patrol (the PLC voted for Factory Summer Camp, but I discourage T-2-1 programs). By the end of the week they were good cooks and a real, working Patrol. Yes you really can cook by Patrols without interfering with the pristine Factory Scouting school schedule experience!

 

 

Summer camp as it exists today has evolved out of a supply and demand need.

 

No. "Supply and demand" is a function of a free market and we Americans do not yet have that freedom. Scouting is controlled by the state and limited to the whims of a single religious organization that values advancement and corporate leadership skills over William Hillcourt's historic BSA Patrol Method.

 

Perhaps selling off Factory Camps to pay for professional salaries, retirement benefits, multi-million dollar offices, and otherwise "keeping the council liquid" is a blessing in disguise. William Hillcourt's 1938 BSA Handbook for Scoutmasters devoted 160 pages just to "how-to" run a Troop Summer Camp! Counting all the photographs and blank pages labeled "Notes," how many pages is the entire current Scoutmaster Handbook?

 

If summer camp were a bad thing or were not meeting the needs of units, they would die away.

 

Close your eyes, scrunch up your forehead real hard, and try to imagine a Wood Badge program devoted to the Patrol Method rather than Leadership Development.

 

If the BSA promoted William Hillcourt's BSA Patrol Method as it did before the 1972 Scouting massacre, then ALL "units" would see the Patrol Method as its most basic Scouting "need."

 

Kudu

 

 

[local1400]

Kudu-don't you know that this is the only form of factory left in America? All other factories closed up and moved over the border leaving millions of Americans under-employed!

[Gonzo1]

I like council camps that offer a wide range of merit badges that can be completed at camp or be finished soon afterward.

 

I completely disagree with using mess halls for meals. Patrol cooking at summer camp can be done, it works well and if a scout has some initiative, he can still earn a few badges, have some fun and be a better scout too.

 

 

[local1400]

Well Gonzo1, you drive on up here next summer and we will drive 4 more hours East to my old camp and I will buy you supper in their new dining hall. Then we can get a slush puppy at the trading post and trade a CSP! Local.