Patrol Sizes at Camping Trips

[CNYScouter]

I have seen discussion along these lines before but dont know if this was talked about.

 

During one of the sessions at SM/Outdoors skills training this weekend we got into a discussion about using the patrol method at camping trips and the size of patrols.

 

We had a large patrol of 10 adults from 9 different units.

There were only 3 of these Troops that did cooking/activities by patrols at camping trips.

2 were from small Troops and only had enough for 1 patrol, the 3rd was a large troop (80+) scouts.

 

I made the statement that a Patrol should stay together and work together as a patrol on camping trips and 2 scouts could function as a Patrol.

 

One of the responses from a patrol member was if we have only 2 Scouts function as a Patrol on a camping trips, they wouldnt come as they would be stuck doing all the work (meaning cooking/cleaning).

 

I wasnt exactly sure how to answer so I just let it go.

 

Has anyone experienced Scouts not coming because of this or was this just a WEBELOS III leader rationalizing why they did things?

 

[FScouter]

If boys stay home because they don't want to cook, that says a lot about how (not) fun their campouts are.

 

Some adults look at the patrol method as more work for them and will rationalize avoiding it. Once you get the patrol method working well, everything is easier.

[SSScout]

What Fscouter said.

 

If one boy goes camping, one boy does the cooking and cleaning.

 

If two boys go camping, two boys do the cooking and cleaning. If they make Beef wellington and potatoes au gratin and waldorf salad and cherries jubilee then they will have alot to negotiate as to who does what. AND they should invite me along (dutch ovens! Who knew!)

 

If four boys go camping, the work load is spread and there is an economy of material and effort, IF all are willing to do their share and IF they can see that the OTHERS are doing a fair share. And there is the REASON behind the Patrol method. Learning and practicing Cooperation, community, "many hands make short/happy/easy work" (depending on the society you listen to).

 

'Course, if the Troop is small, the camp arrangements might be adjusted, but IMHO the Patrols should still remain. Two boys in the racoon P, and 6 boys in the Eagle, OR 8 in the Troop Patrol?

 

IF the boys are afraid of the work or into manipulating others into doing the necessities OR feel dirty hands are beneath them, oooo that's a different thing.

[SR540Beaver]

CNY,

 

We have 63 boys in our troop and 5 patrols. We tend to run our patrols large due to boys missing for football, band, family, etc. If we have patrols of 6 or so and 3 or 4 don't happen to show up, that does leave all of the work on the couple who do show up. By running with larger patrols of 10, even if half don't show up, you still have a decent number to get things done.

 

My son is a PL and he has a patrol with many boys who have competing outside activities. Last month, the SM decided to have my son's patrol combine with another smaller patrol "for cooking purposes" only. He really, really dislikes combining patrols and said at the time that nothing good usually comes of combining two patrols. That is why he limited their joint activities to cooking and cleaaning only. It was a total disaster that ended with one kid having a SM conference and being removed from his position of responsibility. I won't bore you with the details.

 

This month's campout was this past weekend. My son's patrol only had 3 attending. We did not combine them with anyone else and it was much better for everyone involved. Yes, it meant that they all shared in cooking and cleaning at each meal, but so what? That is part of scouting. If a boy will skip a campout simply because he might have to participate in cooking or cleaning more than once, he probably won't last in scouting long term anyway.

 

My advice is that you use the boy led/patrol method regardless of troop or patrol size. A troop I used to serve only had enough boys for one patrol and we still expected them to cook and clean for themselves instead of treat them like Cubs and do it for them.

 

The one issue with a small patrol is food costs. The campouts run $10 per boy for food. That meant my son's patrol had $30 to work with. Even when you buy generic and in the smallest quantity possible, you might have enough food for 4 to 5 scouts instead of the 3 who are attending the campout. Instead of having $40 to $50 to work with, they only had $30. They ran over by $10. The SM fully expected this to happen based on previous experience. The solution to this in our troop is that any money left over from food purchases go to the SM along with the reciepts for the food. He holds this to reimburse patrols that go over due to small size. If you have all 10 in the patrol show up, they have $100 to spend on food and may only end up spending $75 or $80. It all evens out in the end. They could be the patrol with only 3 showing up next month.

[CNYScouter]

I agree with what all has been said so far but I seem to be in the vast minority when it comes to this view of the Patrol Method.

 

This whole discussion started when my fellow staffer suggested that a Troop combine patrols on a camping trip to make up larger groups in which I disagreed.

 

It was asked what should be done if only one or two scouts from a patrol go on a trip.

I suggested that if this was happening you should take a look why and consider doing something different.

Almost all the other leaders jumped to the conclusion that the Scouts are busy with other activities and no one will admit that perhaps their camping trips are not fun.

 

It seems that many Adult Scout Leaders think that it is more important to get a kid on an outing than to use the Patrol Method.

Many feel that they will lose Scouts if they require one or two of them to do the work of a whole patrol.

 

I didnt think that this little discussion had any impact but I saw on some of the course evaluations that they thought the presentation of the different views of the Patrol Methods was one of the things that they got the most out of the training.

 

 

[FScouter]

"... my fellow staffer suggested that a Troop combine patrols on a camping trip to make up larger groups ..."

 

The statement makes no sense. Obviously the result of combining patrols will make a larger group. That is what will happen! The question is WHY WHY WHY is a larger group a good thing, so good that the patrol method must be abandoned to get this good, good, good larger group??

 

The last time our troop had a campout with a patrol of two boys, both of them told me that cooking and cleanup was a whole lot easier than with a full patrol. Makes sense to me; 2 boys make less of a mess than 8 boys.

[Beavah]

Yah, dittos. Suggestions:

 

1. If you have patrol(s) that drop below 4 members on a campout more than once or twice a year, increase your patrol size. Select a patrol size that pretty much guarantees havin' at least 4 boys out on any event.

 

2. If da boys feel that 2 guys is too much work, take a good look at how your patrols do cooking/tenting/cleanup. It is possible, if you do big heavy car-campin' and expect 2 guys to rig the 80lb. patrol dining fly and haul an additional 100lbs. of equipment that they're right, eh? Make your patrol gear and procedures "scalable" so that it's roughly the same workload no matter what.

 

3. If the boys think the workload is too hard, spend some more effort on YLT and on helpin' and coachin' them. Most kids need a lot of hands-on instruction before they start to figure out how to cook/clean well and efficiently. It ain't always easy, and bein' stuck with dishes for 2 hours just because nobody take the time to show 'em how definitely isn't fun.

 

4. Even in da most active busy kid lives you should be able to get half the troop out per trip. If you're gettin' less than that, then you need to spend some real time talkin' to kids and lookin' at your program, eh?

 

 

I personally would suggest da 80 boy troop that doesn't run patrol method split up into 2 smaller units. Tryin' to convert their school-trip style campin' back to patrol campin' will probably just cause chaos. 80 is more than an SPL can handle.

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad]

>>I didnt think that this little discussion had any impact but I saw on some of the course evaluations that they thought the presentation of the different views of the Patrol Methods was one of the things that they got the most out of the training.

[FScouter]

Good point Barry. I think we are sometimes too quick to "adapt to the most efficient methods" without first thinking through what the goals are we are trying to accomplish.

 

It is readily evident: the Scoutmaster that appoints the "best" boy leaders, committee treasurers that insist on a "troop menu" on campouts to enable more cost effective buying of food, bylaws and rule lists so we don't have to think, etc.

 

Sadly, CNY's Wood Badge staff appears to be stuck in the same trap and is spreading this kind of efficiency as a goal in itself.

[SSScout]

Patrol of 8. "Officially", 1 Life, (on to Venture crew, usually), 1 Star (ditto), 2 first class (can't wait for Venture crew), 2 Second Class, two just crossed over 'Scouts'. Last overnight, 1 FC, 1 SC, 1 S. All participated in "Scout Skills" stuff, and had a (reportedly) good time. Can we not encourage the 3 to gripe to the 5 about being "Loyal" to the Patrol? Or are the senior Scouts lost to the VCs?

 

Yes, this is a "mixed" Patrol Troop. 'Course , with a all New Patrol, everybody "graduates" about the same time and , presto, no more Patrol!!

 

YiS

[CNYScouter]

Thanks for all the suggestions

 

This discussion came during SM Specific/Outdoor skills training not WB.

It was also suggested that an option was to go to larger size patrols.

 

It seems that (at least around here) the whole concept of the Patrol Method has been lost.

 

The same staffer that made the comment and I were discussing the SM Specific training and how the session on the "Patrol Method" had little on what the patrol method is.

 

SSScout and EagleDad (and some others)- your sugeestions of "uderstanding the method" really make sense.

Where in the SM Specific should this be discussed?

I said before it is not in the "Patrol Method" session.

I have been doing the Troop Organization session which patrols but not this specifically.

 

After taking SM Specific and staffing it 3 times I really see that a more detailed discussion is needed (at here) on what the "Patrol Method" means.

 

Also th staffer that made this comment came up to me later that day and did say that he agreed with what I said about keeping the patrols together.