Can PLs sign-off on advancement requirements?

[MaScout]

Eagledad's question got me to thinking...just as an adult is not to do a SM Conference or BoR for his/her own son, we don't allow a parent to sign off on rank requirements...it is simply bad form/bad policy. (And we HAVE had "dishonest" parents when it comes to completing the requirements!)

[Spiney Norman]

When I say adults sometimes retest the scouts I should have said ASMs or the SM perform this function. We too have had Dad's sign off for their own son. I will NOT do this and my boy knows it. I am always very dubious of any rquirement signed off by a parent and encourage the scout to have someone else test him for this. In the past we have had some scouts earn several MBs that their parent was the counselor for. Raising an eyebrow and encouraging the parent to send their son out into the world to earn their chops is about all you can do.

[FScouter]

How do you know the SM and assistant SMs are being honest?? If there is any doubt, perhaps they should not be authorized to sign off rank requirements.

 

Same with Scouts authorized to sign off. If there is so much doubt about their integrity that boys must be retested by adults, they should not have been authorized in the first place. Why authorize anyone, boy or adult, to sign off rank requirements if they cannot be trusted to do it properly?

 

Maybe the SM should be the only authorized signer? But then how do we know he can be trusted either?

[Spiney Norman]

OK, You win.

 

You have to trust someone, sometime.

[EagleInKY]

Since most of this work is done during the first year while they are part of the NSP, we primarily use the Troop Guide and the ASM assigned to them to be responsible for this task. Although, any PLC member is allowed to sign off. Also, in cases where a scout is assigned to instruct on a particular subject, he is given the privelege of signing off on what he covers. For example, let's say an older scout is assigned the task of teaching some new scouts their Toten' Chip, he could then sign off on the requirement associated with that.

[Eagle76]

In our troop, sign-offs for rank requirements for Tenderfoot through First Class are only done by Scouts Star rank and above.

 

However, I have observed quite a number of Scouts who didn't seem to be able to perform a skill (knots, lashings, etc.) which they should have been capable of based on their rank. Also, we recently had a Scout come up for a Scoutmaster Conference for First Class, only to have his advancement postponed because, although the requirement was signed off, he had not yet served as patrol cook on a campout, procured the food, etc. I don't believe this was due to dishonesty; I believe the Scout, a relatively new-but-eager-to-advance Scout, did not understand the requirement, and the Scout signing him off did not take the proper time to verify it had been completed properly. (I know, training and instruction for the older Scouts is needed.)

 

However, at the risk of hijacking this thread somewhat, for which I apologize, part of our troop's problem as I see it is that young Scouts are expected to approach older Scouts for sign-offs before or after the troop meeting. Often they are told there is not time, to come back later. They can be put-off numerous times in this way, and when the sign-off is finally done it is often in a rushed manner, since the meeting is about to start or the Scouts are in a hurry to get home.

 

So my question is, how do other troops handle testing for requirements and sign-offs? Based on my observations, maybe time needs to be set aside during the troop meetings to do have the time to do it right.(This message has been edited by Eagle76)

[fgoodwin]

We have a similar problem, exacerbated by the fact that we don't allow PLs (or any other youth) to sign-off on rank requirements.

 

We do most of our advancement work on our monthly campouts. Occasionally, we will do some rank advancement work at troop meetings, like when an ASM or other adult leads a first-aid workshop. When done at a troop meeting, the instructor almost always signs-off and the only problem would be when a boy forgets his HB (or misses the meeting).

 

But when done at a campout, sign-offs are the responsibility of the ASM over the first-year Scouts. He usually does a great job, but there are times when a boy won't ask for a sign-off, then has the problem that no one remembers him doing the work after the fact, or the ASM misses the camp-out and has to rely on the recollection of others, etc.

 

A system ripe with the potential for problems. I think the PLs who teach and see the younger boys do the requirement, should be allowed to sign-off at that moment.

 

Now that I know where the authority is given (SM HB, duh!!), I will approach our SM about sharing that authority with the boys.

 

Thanx all!

[SueM]

I had a case fairly recently of one of my younger scouts...has been in the troop a couple of years, comes to meetings, mostly talks and plays..was not coming to campouts for the most part and was not advancing. One day he showed up with his handbook requesting a SM conference and had requirements signed of for 2 1/2 ranks...all signed off by his older brother, who is one of our Eagle Scouts and still semi-active with the troop. I have serious doubts if all requirements were done as the scout couldn't demonstrate to me that he had a clear understanding of some of them but a scout is trustworthy, so I had to accept what I saw and sent him for a BoR. I then immediately had a talk with older brother then about how it "appears" when family members sign off on requirements (especially for 2+ ranks!!) and requested that he not do that anymore.

 

Sue M.

[Eagledad]

>>I then immediately had a talk with older brother then about how it "appears" when family members sign off on requirements (especially for 2+ ranks!!) and requested that he not do that anymore.

[Beavah]

>>The adult leaders do retest the boy's on some of the more difficult requirements just to keep them honest.

[Eagledad]

>>Works great, unless you're a very small troop.

[Kudu]

For me, authorization to sign off requirements is a matter of personality rather than policy, because BSA Patrol Leaders & SPLs are elected, rather than appointed as Baden-Powell intended.

 

The ideal is to have the Patrol Leader sign off because, as William Hillcourt noted, it is one of the tangible elements of his authority over his Patrol. At that time, however, much instruction was done by the Patrol Leader at independent Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes.

 

Currently I only allow our Troop Guide to sign off requirements because his standards are higher than most of our adults. He is usually at every meeting and outing, but if not then I allow adults or older Scouts to sign off on the skills that they have instructed. I like to see some time pass between instruction and testing, however.

 

SueM writes:

 

One day he showed up with his handbook requesting a SM conference and had requirements signed of for 2 1/2 ranks...all signed off by his older brother, who is one of our Eagle Scouts and still semi-active with the troop. I have serious doubts if all requirements were done as the scout couldn't demonstrate to me that he had a clear understanding of some of them but a scout is trustworthy, so I had to accept what I saw and sent him for a BoR.

 

Yes, you "had to" because of the BSA dictum against "retesting" :-/

 

 

In Baden-Powell Scouting, retesting is part of the early requirements. The last Second Class requirement is to re-pass all of the Tenderfoot requirements, and the second-to-last First Class requirement is to re-pass the Second Class requirements. As a practical matter, this retesting is usually done in the form of helping the Patrol Leader instruct these skills.

 

As for the older Scouts, their Proficiency ("Merit") Badges are worn on the Uniform rather than a sash. The Badges indicate current proficiency, and may no longer be worn when the Scout looses proficiency in a subject. For instance, a Scout may not wear a first aid badge if he does not annually undergo first aid re-certification.

 

As the Scout progresses through the program, the final test of his or her outdoor skills takes the form of progressive "Journeys" or "Expeditions" of increasing difficulty, beginning with the adult-free eight mile Second Class Journey. During the overnight "First Class Journey," if an adult interacts with the Scouts for any reason, then this 15 mile backpacking trip must be taken over.

 

Kudu

 

[Lisabob]

Eagle76 we've faced that same problems: poor quality sign offs and repeated put-offs due to lack of time (by both youth and adult leaders). IMO this jeopardizes key parts of the program and can lead to frustrated boys, which is never good.

 

We've been discussing this on and off for a couple of months in our troop. One thought is to encourage more instant sign offs (as soon as a skill is demonstrated). That would reduce the put-offs, which are especially problematic for the younger boys. But the potential downside to that seems to be that it might encourage sign offs for things the boy really hasn't mastered and couldn't repeat a day/week/month later.

 

As to quality, aside from more training I think this one's really tough, especially when some of scouts (and sometimes adults too) who are signing off on lower rank requirements are, themselves, not terribly proficient in some of the skills in question. And why aren't they proficient? Perhaps because somebody wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to their sign offs at the lower ranks either. Seems like this problem tends to perpetuate itself. Of course it could also be that some skills are forgotten because they don't get used very often, rather than because they weren't learned well to start with (knot tying comes to mind here).

 

Here are a couple of questions in terms of "best practice" for other troops: Does anybody build specific sign-off time into their meetings? Does anybody do any kind of "skill refresher" specifically for those scouts (or adults) who are in a position to be signing the books?

 

Lisa'bob

[Kudu]

Lisa'bob writes:

 

Does anybody build specific sign-off time into their meetings?

 

For us this is just part of the testing process. Sign-off means they knew it when it was signed-off, so if they forget their handbook, then they will get briefly tested again when they finally bring it to a meeting.

 

Usually testing happens a week after instruction but not always. For instance the Five Mile Hike is part of our First Class orienteering requirement in which each Scout leads the group while bushwhacking on three different bearings of at least 1/4 mile each on a local orienteering course. By the end of the day they know their stuff and are signed off right away. In theory this is how every requirement should be covered: outdoors as a natural part of the program camping year.

 

Does anybody do any kind of "skill refresher" specifically for those scouts (or adults) who are in a position to be signing the books?

 

The easiest way is to just have them instruct the skill with the book open. You don't really learn anything until you teach it. The spiral-bound BSA Handbook is great for that!

 

At one time we took the older Scouts on overnight "Green Bar" campouts September, January, and April (leave Friday night, return Saturday evening), and had them practice teaching each other the skills they would be teaching at the next three or four campouts. These were very relaxed campouts and they liked not having younger Scouts along. This practice made a big improvement in the quality of instruction.

 

Before 1972, teaching boys how to lead their Patrol in advancement in such a manner was part of a six-month Patrol Leader Training course, back when we taught them "how to run a Patrol" rather than "how to be a leader." Such a "Green Bar" instruction course can be found at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[JTC-from-OKC-T168]

technicaly yes they can. you can sign off on anything lower than you(so ive heard)

 

i wouldn't personly recomend it, but if you have good scouts and you trust them not to bribe them or just sign it off just to get it over with.

 

im a pretty good scout and am trusted, but if i was the scout master i would leave it to youth senoir leadership and adult leadership.