PL and NSPs

[Lisabob]

The other night my son's troop had pl elections. In my son's patrol the older boys who were assigned (by the SM) as their pl and apl last year after cross over were re-elected to the same positions. From the sound of it, this is because neither of the other 2 boys who were present (both 1st year scouts - my son included) wanted the job, so the current PL and APL finally agreed to run again even though they didn't want to. (There are 2 other boys in the patrol, also 1st year scouts, who might have run for PL but they weren't present.)

 

I'm disappointed because I've noticed that whenever something needs to be done, the younger guys just expect the older guys to take care of it. Here was a chance for the younger scouts to test the waters and take on a little responsibility and they more or less said no thanks, we'll just continue to rely on these older boys to do it for us. The fact that my own son wasn't more willing to step up is bugging me too, I'll admit. The two older scouts really weren't that interested in serving for another year as PL and APL for this patrol and only agreed because somebody had to do it. It doesn't seem fair to them either.

 

I understand that the election "counts" and that this is just the way things are going to be for another year. But...I think this is yet another good reason why NSPs should not have PLs and APLs assigned to them. Don't get me wrong, the PL and APL are both really nice young men. But doing that set the stage for the younger guys to just sit back instead of getting into things themselves and developing their own leadership skills.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually the way I understood it, a new scout patrol, (NSP)is "supposed" to have a troop guide assigned to it, a Troop Guide who is to shepard the new patrol through the process of becomming a patrol, he is the "godfather" though never the leader of the patrol. Each of the patrol members takes turns being the Patrol Leader for a Month and then the new patrol elects a PL.

 

The older guys are never candidates. Now, if instead of patrols grouped by age, some troops have standing patrols and replace attrition in the patrol by new scouts, in that set up, the older boys are role models and its natural for the younger boys to look up to the guys who have been there awhile.

 

Either way, if your troop has a hard time finding motivated PLs, its time to look at the program and how its being delievered.

[CNYScouter]

The PL and APL in the NSP should should be elected from the new scouts in the patrol.

Each new scout should take aturn in being the PL and APL(for at least 1 month).

This gives each new scout a feel for what it is like to be the PL.

 

It's not fair for the older scouts to be doing all the work, but this one issue you have to teach the scouts deal and workout with when using mixed-age patrols.

 

This the type of "tweeking" of the program that I think is detrimental to the program and when it fails you have those leaders who say they tried the NSP and it didn't work for them.

 

I have to agree with OGE and say its time to take a look at your program and how its being delivered.

 

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

We're at our semi-annual election time as well. We're also realigning patrols - along the lines of the boys preferences. The new scouts from this past year are getting integrated into the regular patrols. We have some really sharp guys in this group, some that will surely be leaders of the troop in a couple of years. I was really disappointed in how few of them through their name in the hat for PL or for any of the troop positions. I pulled a couple of them over to the side to really encourage them to ask for a leadership position, but to no avail. They still feel like the "little guys" in the troop. I guess they'll start to feel older in a few weeks when the Webelos cross over. At least I hope that's the case.

[Lisabob]

OGE and CNY I agree, this is not the way it is "supposed" to be done. You'll get no argument from me there. Unfortunately I've not had much luck so far in getting this arrangment changed. I'll keep advocating for troop guides instead of assigned PLs for the NSPs though. Maybe others will "see the light" after this most recent election result.

 

Lisa'bob

[Venividi]

After one year, troop guides should no longer be necessary. I do agree with OGE that it is worth taking the time to get folks together and review why no one in the patrol is motivated to be a leader. Are they excited about participating in the cooking and patrol competitions?

 

I would encourage you to read some of the stuff available on the web by Barry Runnells - he does a good job of describing natural growth in scouts, and that it isn't until 14 or so that a scout really is prepared to be a good leader. (You can find similar material in official BSA publications as well; Barry just describes it better).

 

Personal experience has been that there is great variance between patrols based on the individual members in the patrols. We have had some patrols where after the first year, there were scouts willing to take PL position (and learn), and patrols where no patrol member ever was willing to step forward, even when they reached 14. They even re-elected as their Patrol Leader the scout that participated the least, because he was willing to take the job.

 

In your situation, just a guess, but perhaps the scouts currently serving as PL/ASPL need some additional guidance from a SPL or JASM or ASM on delegating responsibilities to the various patrol members so they learn to do the jobs that the patrol is responsible for getting done on their own ; i.e. patrol quartermaster, patrol scribe, etc.?

[Beavah]

Congratulations, Lisa'bob, on finding a boy-led troop for your son. I think that in true boy-led troops, the boys realize that leadership and other positions of responsibility are real work. They require time, commitment, and a lot of sweat. It's not just a fancy title and a patch. Go thank your SM for this.

 

Congratulations, Lisa'bob, on finding a service-oriented troop for your son. In troops that really live the Scout Oath and Law, those older boys step up to the plate even when it's hard and they don't want to. Leadership & Loyalty for them includes commitment and sacrifice. Send your boy's PL and APL cards to thank them for this.

 

Congratulations, Lisa'bob, on having a smart kid. Not feelin' ready to lead after just one year, and having not had any experience yet leading younger boys - that seems to me to be pretty intelligent and justly humble. That's a boy who when he becomes a leader in the normal course of things will be smart about it, and recognize his own limits along with his capabilities. Give your son a hug and tell him how proud you are of him.

 

Yah, we all should keep strivin' to be perfect. But sometimes it's best to just be happy and supportive of "pretty durn good."

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Well Beavah, that's a different perspective. Thanks for that.

 

Venivedi, according to my son the PL does most of the patrol cooking "because he's quicker at it." I agree the PL and APL could use a little help with delegation and maybe that's a suggestion I can make. They have a patrol scribe and patrol QM but these seem to be positions in name only. Perhaps the patrol advisor is a good person to talk with about this.

 

And for clarification, with the exception of the assigned PL and APL (who are in 8th and 9th grade), the patrols are age based. The rest of the boys in this patrol are 6th graders.

 

Maybe this is just the nature of 11 and 12 year old boys to look to others for leadership rather than stepping forward themselves. Like EagleinKY mentioned, I am also hopeful that these guys will begin to see themselves as "experienced" scouts rather than "new" scouts once we get a new group of webelos at cross over in a couple weeks.

 

Maybe Beavah's right that this was actually a smart decision on their part. I can't help but wonder though, if they keep deferring based on a lack of experience, at what point are they ever going to feel "ready" for that responsibility?

 

Lisa'bob

[Venividi]

Lisabob,

 

I agree with the comment about new Webelos coming in changing how the first year scouts see themselves. The Web's will be looking at them "experienced". Look for opportunities for your son's patrol members to teach skills to the new crossovers.

[Venividi]

I see that somehow in my last reply a different topic previously discussed on this forum appeared in the subject line. Don't know how it happened, and appologize for the mistake.

[Eagledad]

>>I can't help but wonder though, if they keep deferring based on a lack of experience, at what point are they ever going to feel "ready" for that responsibility?

[acco40]

Great post Barry. As the son of a psychologist, one of the things I wish they taught SMs and SAs at either Wood Badge, Scoutmaster Fundamentals or some other supplemental training course is childhood development.

 

About a year ago we had a troop election. The two oldest boys in the troop were interested in obtaining Eagle and not much else Scout wise. The next four oldest boys had Marching Band, Football, Wrestling and/or other conflicts with troop meeting nights. So, for the SPL election, that left only a few "middle aged" (13/14) year old boys who I thought might possibly tackle the SPL position. Well, my son reluctantly ran because another 12 year old decided to run and he would rather of not had him as SPL. My son, a very popular Scout (with the youth, not so with the leaders) won in a landslide. Well, his dad (alias me, aka Scoutmaster) butted heads with him a few times. He really was not ready to lead but to "fit in" which as Barry indicated is the natural response. As "dad" that was hard for me to accept emotionally but easily understood intellectually.

 

Yes, many of the boys know that to take on a leadership position is also taking on additional work and may balk at it. But one thing I've noticed from the NSPs. The boy who has served as a PL (elected, not the one month "trial") usually has great difficulty in that leadership patrol but that makes him a much better patrol member in the future. He can relate to what the PL is going through.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>The boy who has served as a PL (elected, not the one month "trial") usually has great difficulty in that leadership patrol but that makes him a much better patrol member in the future. He can relate to what the PL is going through.

[Mike F]

Barry,

You have an incredible gift!!

Your insights and clarity of thought are an inspiration.

3 Cheers!!!

-mike