The Patrol Method and NYLT

[dan]

National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) is a training course, it is a weeklong course it is setup to represent a month in the life of a troop.

 

Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting?

Yes, but I am not sure if your ideas what a patrol meeting is the same as mine.

 

Do they use these Training Patrol Meetings to actually do things like make their Patrol Flag?

Yes each patrol is encouraged to make a patrol flag and some embellishments on some camp equipment.

 

A Patrol Yell and Patrol Call contest?

Yes each patrol is encouraged to have a patrol yell. In 3 years I have not seen a patrol not have one. They showcase there Patrol Yell during the daily flag ceremony.

 

How about Instructional Games?

The whole course is a game! The whole course is Instructional.

 

I'm sure NYLT must teach Patrol Leaders how to use games to teach Scouting skills!

How many alternatives to basketball or dodge ball do they learn?

The participants are showed how to do many games and are given handouts of many more.

The whole course is setup to teach and watch Scouting Skills

 

Does each participant get a turn at actually performing as Patrol Treasurer, Scribe, Quartermaster, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, Cheermaster?

No, this course is more for SPL, ASPL, Troop Guide, Troop Instructors and PL. Each participant is a PL or Scribe for a day; they will attend a PLC and report with any issues with the patrol and take the days schedule back to the patrol. The Scribe is asked to provide a write up about the patrol for the newspaper.

 

Do they make a knot board?

Not within this district, but I do know of other districts they do use a knot board, this district does tabletop pioneering and pioneering projects.

 

Opening ceremonies?

Closing ceremonies?

They are taught and run a campfire program. Taught and run Opening and closing flag ceremonies.

 

Making camp equipment, even repairing toys as a Good Turn?

No, but they do build a few camp gadgets when doing pioneering.

 

How about planning? Do they learn how to actually plan a Patrol Meeting, point by point?

No, but do learn how to plan and run troop meetings.

 

Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Hike?

The route, the equipment, the food?

There is a day where the patrols go on a hike, to their campsite, with all of there gear, a map is given to them they either use a GPS and compass or just a compass. There is one training course where they have to plan the meal and every item they will need to make the meal, this one is quite a learning experience for them.

 

The activities that make for a fun and purposeful hike?

No

 

How about Scoutcraft instruction?

Each participant does a presentation on anything they want about Scouting. Most do Scoutcraft skills.

 

Does NYLT teach Patrol leaders how to teach specific advancement skills?

No, it is more the skills on how to relate to people how to understand other people and yourself. And how to utilize other people. But wouldn't this be the job of the Troop Guide or Instructor?

 

I'm sure that it must cover the theory of Scoutcraft Advancement within the Patrol!

You know, topics like: "Why advancement? What constitutes normal advancement?

No

 

Why is it important that the Patrol Leader is ahead of the Scouts in his Patrol?

If you mean the Leader of the Patrol Yes.

 

How does hiking and camping make advancement possible?" I'm sure that NYLT covers how to teach most of the Scoutcraft advancement requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class.

No

 

Singing?

Yes, I watched a patrol sing stand be me, you should have heard it!

 

Story telling?

They hear stories from the staff, it really depends on the participants, I have heard some great stories from them and some will not tell stories.

 

How about dramatics rather than pun & put-down skits?

Yes, this is a whole chapter about what makes good skits.

 

Do they then go on a Patrol Hike to see what a good Patrol Hike is like ("A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose")? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Campout?

All the details such as permission forms, equipment, campground selection, food, games to play.

No

 

I'm sure that NYLT teaches Patrol Leaders how to prepare campout games ahead of time.

No

 

And do they actually camp as a Patrol rather than just talking about it?

Yes each patrol is separate by as much room as it allows. Patrols are grouped by abilities and age, using a talent sheet the scout fill out ahead of time, trying to get the patrol strong enough to have a strong patrol. Scouts from the same troop are not placed in the same patrol. It is a group of scouts coming together; most of the patrols are very strong by the end of the week. Utilizing the strength of each scout.

 

[Kudu]

Dan,

 

From your description, NYLT appears to be a Council-level nuts & bolts training course. As far as I am concerned this is far superior to spending a week learning abstract stuff like "11 Leadership Skills" or the "One Minute Manager."

 

I wrote:

 

Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting?

 

To which you answered:

 

Yes, but I am not sure if your ideas what a patrol meeting is the same as mine.

 

A Patrol Meeting is a gathering of the members of a single Patrol outside of the weekly Troop meeting or monthly campout. In William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Meeting is where the Patrol works on Advancement, plans its Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts, plans & performs good deeds, and rehearses stories, songs, and "stunts" to be performed for the entertainment of other Patrols at Troop events.

 

"Stunts" are funny or serious "campfire ceremonies," see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/stunts/index.htm

 

But wouldn't this [Advancement] be the job of the Troop Guide or Instructor?

 

In Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader guides the Advancement of his Patrol members from Tenderfoot through First Class. Signing off requirements is one of the signs of a Patrol Leader's authority. I use both methods, depending on the talent of available Junior Leaders. An Eagle Scout sometimes makes a great Patrol Leader for a Patrol of new Scouts. If none of the older Scouts want to be a full time Patrol Leader of a group of sixth-graders, then a Troop Guide is the best way to go. In our Troop, a Patrol of new Scouts is not split up later.

 

Hillcourt's Green Bar Training appears to differ from NYLT in that "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is 1) A troop-based course run by the Scoutmaster, and 2) Is primarily concerned with teaching Patrol Leaders how to run a a) Patrol Meeting, b) Patrol Hike, and c) Patrol Campout. See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

I would note that NYLT requires a week of time and probably costs as much as a week of summer camp, whereas the Green Bar Patrol can meet once a month before PLC meetings for six months (plus one Saturday for the Patrol Hike, and one weekend for the Patrol Campout).

 

The hike you describe sounds more like a backpacking campout than an actual Patrol Hike.

 

You indicate that NYLT includes a campout, is it planned by the PLC or by the the Patrol?

 

There are plenty of theories about why Scouts do not usually hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. I would submit that it is because we do not train Patrol Leaders how to do that. You get what you train for.

 

All things considered, NYLT looks like a good, solid training course and I might volunteer to staff it this summer to get a closer look.

 

Kudu

 

[dan]

When camping for a week, scout skills well be learned, after saying that, NYLT does not utilize as many scout skill as JLTC. This is not a course which to teach scout skills like fire building, cooking, but as I said before if you are camping for a week in a tent, cooking over wood fires. Scout skills are honed over the week, some of the Scout Skills are part of the course, and some are there because it is a week long camp. There are presentations such as, Preparing your plans, Resolving Conflict, Leading yourself and so on, but do you not think these are good tools for a leader?

If you want to staff this summer, you had better call now! We have already had 2 meetings, for the course in June.

 

You wrote

You indicate that NYLT includes a campout, is it planned by the PLC or by the Patrol?

Planned by the youth staff with help from the syllabus.

 

You wrote

There are plenty of theories about why Scouts do not usually hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. I would submit that it is because we do not train Patrol Leaders how to do that. You get what you train for.

 

I could not agree with you more! All you hear is excuses why they scouts cannot go on a patrol activity, to busy, not ready and so on.

 

I would like to see Patrol leaders be responsible for the patrols advancement, as you have said before. I see this as the Patrol Leader monitors what the other members of the patrol needs, and take this to the PLC, so that the PLC can include the teaching of the skills at a meeting or a campout by a troop instructor. Are we thinking along the same lines here?

You have wrote about the Patrol Leader signing off of advancements, What does this leave the Troop Instructor to do?

 

[Kudu]

Dan writes:

 

There are presentations such as, Preparing your plans, Resolving Conflict, Leading yourself and so on, but do you not think these are good tools for a leader?

 

Sure. As long as they are not too abstract and involve realistic role-playing.

 

If you want to staff this summer, you had better call now! We have already had 2 meetings, for the course in June.

 

Our's is in August.

 

I would like to see Patrol leaders be responsible for the patrols advancement, as you have said before. I see this as the Patrol Leader monitors what the other members of the patrol needs, and take this to the PLC, so that the PLC can include the teaching of the skills at a meeting or a campout by a troop instructor. Are we thinking along the same lines here?

 

In Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader does the instruction. Some of this can be in Patrol Meetings. He can even organize a Patrol outing (maybe a hike) that does not depend on the rest of the Troop.

 

For me, it really depends on the personalities involved. If the PL's election is the result of a popularity contest, I may not grant him authority to sign off, and in that case it is handled by the Troop Guide (TG). The TG has a vote on the PLC so that he can influence the scheduling of training events.

 

You have wrote about the Patrol Leader signing off of advancements, What does this leave the Troop Instructor to do?

 

Again, it depends on the personalities involved. When we use Troop Instructors, they work under the supervision of the Troop Guide. The Instructors instruct and the TG tests and signs off.

 

At one time the TG was appointed by the SM, not the SPL. I consider the TG and the Quartermasters to be very important offices and make my influence felt in their appointment.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

After reading Kudus vision of a Council level JLT, I must ask; do we need a SM anymore? I think it is important that we understand who we are training and what they should already know when they come to the course and what do we want council to really teach.

 

We ran into this very problem a few years ago in our council and we came up with two decisions for our JLTC course at the time;

 

1. JLTC was a course for senior scouts, so we assume that scouts already knew their basic scout skills and Patrol Method.

 

2. This was a course to teach advanced leadership skills to the troop senior leadership. We again assume they already experienced basic leadership practices like leading a patrol and attended PLC meetings. Our goal was teaching how to run better meetings, writing and using agendas, and learning additional leadership skills. All of this was based from the SPL and PL Handbooks.

 

Even more interesting as we worked to improve JLTC performance and reputation, we polled SMs in the Council and found that most didnt even listen to their scouts after they came back from the course. So the skills and information the scouts took away from the course wasnt getting down into the Troops. Its not that the SMs were evil of even negligent, they just didnt know what Council was teaching, so they didn't know how to support the scouts with their new skills. Im not sure the NYLT has approached that problem even now.

 

After reading this thread, I feel the real problem isnt providing a course to teach Scouts skills, Patrol Method or Leadership to the scouts, but we instead need a course that teaches Scoutmasters that they are supposed to teach Scout Skills, Patrol Method and Leadership to the scouts. Some how SM SPecific isn't working.

 

Our Council tried to attack this problem by requiring at least one adult for every Troop represented at JLTC attend a half day course that highlighted the Scoutmasters responsibilities of teaching Patrol Method, scout skills and leadership that is presented in the Patrol Leaders hand book, SPL handbook and Scout Handbook along with the advanced skills taught at the course. We then had these leaders sit down with their scouts for an hour and review what the scouts had learned that week and the goals they wrote for the troop using their new skills. This was an attempt to get the adults engaged to what the course was teaching and also a stepping off point for the adult leader and scout to work together in using the new skills. Comments were very positive about this approach and some Scoutmasters felt made a big difference in their program.

 

I do like the looks of NYLT so far and I hope it helps a lot of boys become better leaders. I know National worked hard this time to build a high performing course. Thanks for all you have done to help Dan.

 

Good discussion. Have a great week.

 

I love this Scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[SueM]

The NYLT course is basically Jr. Wood Badge. It teaches more of those kinds of leadership skills then the troop based JLT does. The formula for the week (or 2 weekends) though is basically the same as Wood Badge..you're divided into patrols, have a troop guide and yes, patrols plan their own campouts...just as you would in WB. It's a course though that is meant mainly for SLP & ASPL (or those older boys who may be in line to become one of those)

 

sue

[dan]

Eagledad

During the Course Director Conference in 2004, it was suggested that during the feast that all Scoutmasters be invited out and after the feast the scouts would share their vision of their troop with their Scoutmasters. To help with the issue that you brought up.

 

I really do not believe that the course is just for SPLs or possible SPLs. This is a leadership course, that all leaders in the troop can learn from, Guides, Instructors, ASPLs,PLs

 

[SueM]

dan,

 

I should have clarified..in our council, we're told that it is mainly (not solely!) meant for SPL's or those boy who may be SPL's. I've had several people question whether or not a 12 yr old is mature enough to undestand it all..

 

sue m.

[Kudu]

After reading Kudus vision of a Council level JLT, I must ask; do we need a SM anymore?

 

I don't understand the meaning of that sentence, but I would point out that the big advantage of "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is that the Scoutmaster himself trains his Patrol Leaders.

 

I should have clarified..in our council, we're told that it is mainly (not solely!) meant for SPL's or those boy who may be SPL's.

 

Yeah, this sounds like the "Troop Method," not the Patrol Method.

 

I've had several people question whether or not a 12 yr old is mature enough to understand it all.

 

A 12yo natural leader can certainly run a Patrol. Albert Einstein once said that if you can't explain the most abstract scientific theory in a way that a 12yo can understand, then you don't really understand that theory yourself.

 

Where exactly does the BSA teach Patrol Leaders how to actually run a Patrol? And more importantly, where exactly does the BSA actually teach Scoutmasters how to teach a Patrol Leader how to actually run a Patrol?

 

I suspect that when most of us talk about "The Patrol Method," we are really talking about running Troop meetings, and that we mentally discount anything that would not be as equally useful to all Junior Leaders (an ASPL, for instance) as being too "Position specific," and not abstract enough.

 

The BSA thus sacrifices the Patrol Method to the efficiency of the "Leadership Development" Method in Junior Leader Training, in the same way that most summer camps sacrifice the Patrol Method (in the form of Patrol cooking) to the efficiency of the "Advancement Method" (making sure that the Patrol Method does not get in the way earning lots of Merit Badges at summer camp).

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>I don't understand the meaning of that sentence, but I would point out that the big advantage of "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is that the Scoutmaster himself trains his Patrol Leaders. >Where exactly does the BSA teach Patrol Leaders how to actually run a Patrol? And more importantly, where exactly does the BSA actually teach Scoutmasters how to teach a Patrol Leader how to actually run a Patrol?>I suspect that when most of us talk about "The Patrol Method," we are really talking about running Troop meetings, and that we mentally discount anything that would not be as equally useful to all Junior Leaders (an ASPL, for instance) as being too "Position specific," and not abstract enough.>The BSA thus sacrifices the Patrol Method to the efficiency of the "Leadership Development" Method in Junior Leader Training, in the same way that most summer camps sacrifice the Patrol Method (in the form of Patrol cooking) to the efficiency of the "Advancement Method" (making sure that the Patrol Method does not get in the way earning lots of Merit Badges at summer camp).

[Eagledad]

Whoops, In my hurry in the last post, I forgot to delete Kudo and sigh off with Barry.

 

I Love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[EagleInKY]

Sure Barry... I've heard that one before. Now we know the truth. Kudo is your alternate personality... :-) It's nice knowing both of you!

 

;-)

[Eagledad]

>>Sure Barry... I've heard that one before. Now we know the truth. Kudo is your alternate personality... :-) It's nice knowing both of you!

[Kudu]

>>I suspect that when most of us talk about "The Patrol Method," we are really talking about running Troop meetings, and that we mentally discount anything that would not be as equally useful to all Junior Leaders (an ASPL, for instance) as being too "Position specific," and not abstract enough.

[Eamonn]

I have not as yet read the syllabus or seen the NYLT course presented.

Our Council did hold the course in 2005, but the reports I received said that the attendance was poor and the staff weren't very well trained.

I think maybe the National Jamboree can take some of the blame.

I think some of the best times I have ever spent in Scouting were spent with the members of the PLC.

Maybe I'm guilty of being too critical? But having spent the last ten years watching the SM's in our District at work, it seems to me that they are so busy doing things that they maybe ought not to be doing that they just don't seem to take the time to train and work with the PLC members.

I'll spare you my rant about the stuff I see them doing that I don't like.

The Troop which OJ is in has some very strange ideas about the Patrol Method. They go through all the elections and pass out patches but other than inviting the SPL to the Leader/committee meetings that is about as far as it goes. They never send anyone to JLTC, so I'm supposing that they will never send anyone to this new course.

OJ did staff JLTC and when he was SPL did try and make some changes. Sadly in many ways having seen how it should or could be he became more than a little frustrated.

As I say I have not had any dealing with this new course.

I seem to remember at one time hearing it wasn't just a Boy Scout course? But was also for Venturers? Is that the case?

OJ has done several (Well two!) NYLT courses with the OA. One because he served at the Lodge level and he went back again when he joined the Section Officers.

While I'm very well versed in the BSA Vision and Mission. I have this great fear that one day all of our SM's will only be able to organize Merit Badge classes. They will not be able to do the traditional Scouting stuff (No not just knots!!) and the Scouts will hang around just long enough to earn enough badges to add Eagle Scout to their resume and the scarper. Mr Scoutmaster will be trained in leadership, but isn't going to have the skills to pass on to the PLC. The PLC will also be trained in Leadership, but will have not been taught the skills needed to do anything.

This doesn't mean that I'm in anyway belittling this new course. I'm sure that it will go a long way to help youth leaders lead. But if we are not careful our Boy Scouts will be trading in their backpacks for briefcases. When that happens I'm not going to have anyone to play with.

Eamonn.