when do you start a new Troop?

[Kudu]

 

Scouter.Com is dedicated to the contributions that William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt made to Scouting, see:

 

http://www.scouter.com/features/0290.asp

 

Those of us who offer suggestions as to how Hillcourt's vision of Scouting can be applied to the BSA's program should not be subject to unScoutlike personal attacks.

 

Do you follow the GTSS or do you believe that the old ways are better?

 

The central definition of "Traditional Scouting" refers to the necessity of making changes that reflect advances in 1) Heath & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), and 3) Lightweight Equipment. However, not all aspects of the GTSS are based on realistic risk assessment. Likewise, using the GTSS to forbid "Laser Tag" is pure monopoly-mentality political correctness. If you consider debates on such topics to be "BSA bashing," then consider using the squelch feature :-/

 

And you want to ignore the future, if you wish to live in the past thats fine, but why do you try to sell it as the current BSA program?

 

What exactly do you think Hillcourt had wrong about the Patrol Method?

 

So you consider that breaking rules or ignoring guidelines, is going the extra mile, I am starting to understand you a bit more.

 

OK, if you want to continue discussing me, I suggest that you spin off a new personal-attack "rule breaking" topic so that people looking for positive ideas don't have to wade through your attempts to be hurtful.

 

Than why in wide world of sports do you posts your alternates when posters ask about a BSA Boy Scout troop?

 

I recommend that Scouters who find the BSA's rich history both interesting and useful purchase used copies of Hillcourt's old Scoutmaster handbooks, which are still surprisingly inexpensive. BSA Scouters are on their own in regard to the history of Scouting, because the current handbooks for Scoutmasters contain obvious mistakes that anyone who had read Hillcourt would not make. For instance attributing to Baden-Powell quotations such as "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" or "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!"

 

In your mind do you think they are asking about the Kudu troop?

 

I am promoting William Hillcourt's BSA ideas, not my own.

 

No I believe that the JLT program is a really good program, include NYLT and it becomes a great program, without having to put little twist in it.

 

Then make a positive contribution to the topic by specifying what aspects of JLT and NYLT are especially relevant to forming a new Troop from scratch, rather than attacking the suggestions of other people.

 

Adults trying to show scouts how to be kids has never worked and will never work.

 

Adults showing Scouts how to act like Scouts certainly does work. It is what Hillcourt had in mind when he talked about adult association. This is especially important when you are starting a new Troop and the Scouts do not have older Scouts as role models. In established Troops, a Scoutmaster once a month showing by example how to run a Patrol is more far more useful than telling through abstract theory.

 

I know that scouts will follow other scouts a lot more than adults. When scouts are allowed to show, teach scouts you will get a lot more.

 

I believe that you are confusing advancement with leadership development. Older Scouts (especially Patrol Leaders) strengthen their leadership credibility through patiently teaching Scouting skills to the younger Scouts in their Patrol. However, if you only have one Patrol of 11 year-olds it doesn't work.

 

Even in established Troops, Green Bar Patrol Campouts are useful for allowing new Patrol Leaders to brush up on the Scouting skills that they "forgot," before they are in front of the Patrol they are supposed to be teaching.

 

You get scouts that learn how to lead like scouts not like adults.

 

I am not familiar with NYLT, has the BSA now dealt the Scoutmaster out of training Junior Leaders in favor of some kind of peer-instruction?

 

Times have changed scouts are different now, kids are smarter, and more knowledgeable,

 

I reject the idea that kids are now "smarter" or more "knowledgeable." Do they now have a better command of history, reading comprehension, or mathematics? Were their grandparents less ethical, less concerned about the welfare of others? Were street kids then less "street-wise" than now?

 

the old ways will not keep them interested, as in business you either change or fold.

 

OK, I do admit that this is one area in which I consider the BSA to be dead-wrong: the "business model" idea that Scouting has to "diversify" into pop-culture products in order to maintain its "market share" of some imagined youth culture. You see this reflected in the constant Council flyers about "Scout days" at all of the local sports arenas, and Camporees on the playing fields or on the manicured lawns of public parks. Nothing is more sad than Scouting officials trying to be "hip" and "cool" or whatever it is these days that "hip" and "cool" people call "hip" and "cool" :-/

 

When I walk into an auditorium full of know-it-all, wise-guy sixth-graders, I recruit them by talking about bears and rattlesnakes, about our rule that they carry matches and a knife in the woods. I talk about how one of our Scouts saved his dad's life using the skills that he learned in Scouts, and that they too can learn the first aid skills that might save the life of someone that they love. All boys want to be heros. I talk about a Patrol of friends setting up their tents in the woods, and cooking their own food over a campfire. I talk about learning how to shoot rifles, shotguns, and bows & arrows. I talk about finding their way through the woods with a map and compass, and steering their canoe down a river deep in the wilderness.

 

The whole point of Scouting is to return to the woods where the skills they need to be comfortable and the values they need to best get along, evoke the same experience unique to Scouting that intrigued their grandfathers when they were boys.

 

Yes, the "old ways" are what we have to offer.

 

Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[dan]

johndaigler

I am still confused!?

Where did I attack kudu, or anyone on this thread? he writes that I am remaining ignorant and he rejects my thoughts, but I cannot rejects his?!?, and I am the attacker? Please copy and paste what you think is an attack? So I can better understand where you are coming from.

I thought this forum was to help understand todays BSA program, not to talk about the good old days. I believe that there is a forum for Scouting History where all administrators should move his post to. Kudu is spreading false information and trying to get people to believe it is how the BSA wants the program to be ran.

I think that I have done a good job of showing that he does not follow the Scout Oath or the GTSS. Is this what the administrators of this forum wants the readers of this forum to believe is the correct way to run the BSA program?

 

[Lisabob]

Getting back to rkfrance's original post...

 

Seems to me it is easiest to start a new pack, harder to start a new troop. With the cub program, pretty much any group of well-meaning and dedicated adults can learn to run a good program pretty quickly and with relatively little in the way of equipment or other physical needs, besides a good meeting place. To run a good troop you need much more specific knowledge about camping and the outdoors. While various BSA trainings offer some of that knowledge, if you had a group of parents with limited personal experience, there's just no way (in my view) that a weekend of OLS is going to be enough for them to run a quality program. Not to mention that troops tend to have much more expensive and expansive needs in terms of equipment.

(I don't have any experience with crews but I guess it would depend on the purpose and focus of the crew to a large extent).

 

So I guess one thing I'd give serious thought to before starting a new troop is: where are the adult leaders going to come from? It is one thing to say well, the parents of the boys who are going to join will become leaders. It is another thing, especially at first, to make this actually happen and it depends as well on what kind of experience those parents have.

 

Lisa'bob

[johndaigler]

Dan, read Kudu's response. It's fairly obvious that he felt attacked personally. Some of your (and others') comments focused on him rather than on the ideas he presented. I don't want this thread to be about me, or you, or Kudu. I merely suggested that we could leave out the personal judgements (comments about another Scouter's ability to follow the Scout Law, or labeling them as BSA-bashers) and focus on the topic and ideas/suggestions that might help Scouters who find themselves in "lost" units.

 

Please don't take my comments as representative of the entire Moderator team. Similarly, everyone should realize they can't take Kudu's ideas as representative of official BSA policy -- nor can they take johndaigler's, dan's, FScouter's, OGE's, Eamonn's, Terry's or anyone else who posts here. We all contribute what we can - what we are. We are different, so we offer different ideas -- none of us offers the whole package. All I've suggested here in this thread is that if my son were "attacked" at a Scout meeting and there was no Unit follow up, I'd be looking to join or make a new Unit. After that, I suggested we focus on ideas to help rkfrance, and others who belong to "lost" units, without focusing on the people posting alternative ideas.

 

jd

[dan]

johndaigler

Since you cannot show me where I slammed kudu, I am going to assume you could not find one

I feel that you are singling me out on this issue. So know I feel I am picking attacked on this! Just using your logic!

I understand that you do not feel that scouter's should have to follow the BSA program and I feel that they should. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

It just amazes me that you do not want people to be challenged for not following the GTSS or the BSA program.

 

[Kudu]

I thought this forum was to help understand todays BSA program....

 

Well, let's fix that right now!

 

Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop.

 

However, others who see the topic "When do you Start a New Troop?" may understand that their problems with Scouting cannot be fixed within the BSA program.

 

They may be reluctant to discuss it here because any criticism of the BSA program is guaranteed to subject them to odd personal attacks about the "GTSS" and accusations of "bashing the BSA" or being a "BSA hater."

 

Well, part of that is human nature, and part of it is the result of the BSA's special rights as a government-established religious monopoly on Scouting. If Congress established McDonald's with a similar monopoly, then any admission that you preferred broiled hamburger (or vinegar on your fries, eh?) would subject you to personal attacks on your character, accusations of "bashing McDonald's" or being a "Burger hater," and sneering comments about how broiled burgers are merely a historical curiosity and not to be allowed in today's modern world.

 

Be that as it may, there are good reasons for some people to consider Scouting programs other than the BSA.

 

These alternative programs can be divided into two categories, 1) Associations such as the "Royal Rangers," the "Navigators," and the WFIS-NA "Independent Pathfinders" which do not use the term "Scouting" and 2) Associations such as "YouthScouts," "SpiralScouts" or "Baden-Powell Scouts" which use the word "Scouting" to assert that the BSA program is only one corporate spin on the product, and other ways of practicing Scouting may appeal to other customers. The national headquarters of such associations are likely to face decades of litigation, but on the local level you may not feel that impact. And hey, for libertarians, defending freedom from government-imposed monopolies is the American thing to do :-/

 

A Couple Reasons to Start a New Non-BSA Troop:

 

1. Traditional Scouting (Pre-1970s Scouting Programs): I list this first only because it is obviously my own favorite. These programs are based on Baden-Powell, not William Hillcourt, and include traditional advancement skills such as signalling, observation, tracking, cooking without utensils, starting a fire with natural materials and only 2 matches, and many other skills found in Scouting for Boys.

 

2. Religious Objections: Some congregations consider the BSA's interpretation of the Scouting Ideals to be inconsistent with their own deeply-held values. Keeping six-year-olds out of Scouting because their parents won't sign the "Declaration of Religious Principle" is regarded by some as contrary to even the most superficial understanding of the unconditional love taught by Jesus or the limitless compassion of the Buddha.

 

3. Challenging Program for Girls: Many alternative Scouting programs offer the same program for both boys and girls over 11 years old. However, some of them (such as BPSA-USA) require that female and male Patrols be physically separated so that adult interference in the Patrol System may be kept to a minimum.

 

4. Local Politics: Most Scouting happens at the local Troop level, and chances are that you will never meet the kind of mean-spirited people that surface in Internet Scouting discussion groups. But some Councils are run by professionals and commissioners that match that description and are proud of it. You simply can not escape them unless you leave the BSA.

 

5. Monopoly Madness: These are the mindless policies that can exist only in government-sanctioned monopolies protected from the corrective forces of a free market. These are the issues that surface over and over such as the mind-numbingly awful BSA Scout Pants, or the Politically Correct decision to forbid Laser Tag by adding it to the Guide to Safe Scouting. These things may seem trivial to most adults, but I bet if you asked the Scouts in your "boy-led" Troop if they wanted to switch to a Scout Troop with BDUs and laser tag, they would be out the door :-/

 

Kudu

 

 

[johndaigler]

kudu, you seem so well informed about the pre-1970 program, but your posts don't show the same content with regards to the present version. I understand your appreciation for the program with which I grew up, but if you're going to offer it up as better than things like NYLT and JLT, don't you need to be better informed?

 

It seems like discussing program with you is talking apples and oranges. Where will we ever get - how will we ever accomplish anything if you bait the new program faithful and the new program defenders bait you. Sure, they need to tell you how good this version of the program is, but don't you have a responsibility to know more about it before you disparage it as less than what it used to be?

 

By the time you get to, "Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop. . . .", you're just ranting. This is way oversimplified and just unfair. It appears you were just sandbagging for the opportunity to advertise other programs. This last post doesn't seemed aimed at helping rkfrance, as much as giving stomache ulcers to a few people who disagree with you.

 

I would hate to conclude that your goal is merely to create opportunities to make digs at the present org and program -- that would certainly minimize the credibility and value I assign to your posted ideas. As much as others need to refrain from taking shots at you and focus on your ideas -- you ought to take some of the venom out as well.

 

my $0.02

 

jd

[eagle90]

Amen to Eamonn. Do not start a new troop out of anger or spite. We had two new committee members (less than a year's experience) disagree with some troop policies. They both also had a power-trip mentality and bolted and started their own unit rather than learn and work to improve a 50+ year old unit. Now two years later these two, who were good friends, are now enemies, the new unit is on their 3rd Scoutmaster in 2 years, is down to low single digit members, and all of the original committee members have left. In talking with one family who left, they said, "We never knew how much work and time is involved in starting a troop. We should never have left". The saddest part is that most of the boys who left are no longer involved in the program at all.

[Beavah]

Troops generally have these adult squabbles when there's no shared "vision" and they haven't done a good job screening adults. Never join such a program. No matter how well-intentioned you are, you're just adding to the cacophany of competing visions. And it's really not fair to the boys in that program who joined that troop, not the one you want to change it into.

 

Find a different program whose "vision" matches yours, and whose style is a good fit for your son. Or go to a current troop "suspending disbelief" and agreeing to be supportive even when you disagree. If you can't do either, then start one... but know that starting a troop is the equivalent of starting a small business. Unless you and others are ready to make that commitment, don't go there. It's unfair to the kids.

 

Personally, I think new troops should only be started from strong troops that have gotten too big. You build a new store only when there's that kind of excess demand.

[Eagledad]

>>Troops generally have these adult squabbles when there's no shared "vision".Find a different program whose "vision" matches yours, and whose style is a good fit for your son. Or go to a current troop "suspending disbelief" and agreeing to be supportive even when you disagree. If you can't do either, then start one... but know that starting a troop is the equivalent of starting a small business.

[Kudu]

jd writes:

 

Kudu, you seem so well informed about the pre-1970 program, but your posts don't show the same content with regards to the present version.

 

I've staffed my share of Council BSA training courses, jd, so you know what? Explaining the BSA's newest programs is somebody else's job now.

 

if you're going to offer it up as better than things like NYLT and JLT,

 

If you read what I actually wrote, you will see that I "offer up" William Hillcourt as a completely different form of training. JLT is abstract leadership skills, Green Bar Training is nuts & bolts. Obviously I'm a nuts & bolts guy, but I promise not to roll my eyes when other guys talk about how weepy they get in JLT when their Scouts pick their own potato out of a pile and introduce him to the group. I'm sure that is useful :-/

 

don't you need to be better informed?

 

If I have made any factual errors just say so.

 

We all have our areas of interest. My Website offers more than 2,000 pages of non-BSA information. The year 2006 is only 17days old so far and already I have served up 250,773 page views for 57,660 unique visitors, probably mostly BSA Scouters.

 

My posts are written for the 10% in any group of Scouters who want to know everything they can about Scouting. If 10% of them go on to try a "new" old idea, then I have been successful.

 

So tell me about NYLT, jd! Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting? Do they use these Training Patrol Meetings to actually do things like make their Patrol Flag? A Patrol Yell and Patrol Call contest? How about Instructional Games? I'm sure NYLT must teach Patrol Leaders how to use games to teach Scouting skills! Does each participant get a turn at actually performing as Patrol Treasurer, Scribe, Quartermaster, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, Cheermaster? Do they make a knot board? I really like knot boards, and I'm glad to hear the BSA encourages that! How about traditional Scouting games? How many alternatives to basketball or dodge ball do they learn? Opening ceremonies? Closing ceremonies? Making camp equipment, even repairing toys as a Good Turn? How about planning? Do they learn how to actually plan a Patrol Meeting, point by point? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Hike? The route, the equipment, the food? The activities that make for a fun and purposeful hike? How about Scoutcraft instruction? Does NYLT teach Patrol leaders how to teach specific advancement skills? I'm sure that it must cover the theory of Scoutcraft Advancement within the Patrol! You know, topics like: "Why advancement? What constitutes normal advancement? Why is it important that the Patrol Leader is ahead of the Scouts in his Patrol? How does hiking and camping make advancement possible?" I'm sure that NYLT covers how to teach most of the Scoutcraft advancement requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Singing? Story telling? How about dramatics rather than pun & put-down skits? Do they then go on a Patrol Hike to see what a good Patrol Hike is like ("A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose")? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Campout? All the details such as permission forms, equipment, campground selection, food, games to play. I'm sure that NYLT teaches Patrol Leaders how to prepare campout games ahead of time. And do they actually camp as a Patrol rather than just talking about it?

 

Certainly these skills are essential to forming a new Troop from scratch, so they must be covered in NYLT, right?

 

Or is Dan correct, that teaching such subjects is against Scout Law and a violation of the Guide to Safe Scouting?

 

It seems like discussing program with you is talking apples and oranges.

 

Tell me what you are talking about, and I will be happy to explain why mixing apples and oranges is a good thing.

 

how will we ever accomplish anything if you bait the new program faithful and the new program defenders bait you.

 

You forgot the part where the "new program defenders" spank the moderator and send him to the corner.

 

By the time you get to, "Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop. . . .", you're just ranting. This is way oversimplified and just unfair.

 

Um, jd? You are projecting. Any neutral reading of that sentence will show that I was saying that RKfrance can solve his problems within the BSA structure. Then I moved on to address the wider issue of solving problems outside the BSA structure.

 

This last post doesn't seemed aimed at helping rkfrance, as much as giving stomach ulcers to a few people who disagree with you.

 

My last post had nothing to do with helping rkfrance. It was intended for readers who encounter a troll in their local Council, and decide that if they can't follow his rules, they should leave Scouting. Yes, people with ulcers tend to be nicer when their intended victims can go elsewhere.

 

It appears you were just sandbagging for the opportunity to advertise other programs.....I would hate to conclude that your goal is merely to create opportunities to make digs at the present org and program -- that would certainly minimize the credibility and value I assign to your posted ideas.

 

Well, get used to it, jd. Whenever someone says that the BSA does not allow something, I will always offer ways of getting around it and/or suggest an alternative to the BSA.

 

Since you are speculating on my motives, let me speculate on yours!

 

A friend of mine has a PhD in English Literature. Whenever he has problems with a corporation, he writes a letter in crayon on a brown paper bag. He writes in sentence fragments on the level of an angry sixth grader. He reports that if you are reasonable, then the company may write back asking for more details or to explain why they cannot resolve this issue in your favor. But if you act in a completely unreasonable way, then people often decide that it is easier to just let you have your way.

 

I submit that the "new program defenders" have done that to you. :-)

 

Kudu

 

 

[johndaigler]

Apparently I should go back to my old vertically-striped referee shirt! It seems this new one with the concentric circles is sending the wrong message!

 

jd

[dan]

Kudu

I love to read about scouting history, I hope that the BSA has learned from the past and not ignored it.

Reading your questions on NYLT, the answers to almost all of your questions is yes. I would like to do a spin off to answer your questions if you and johndaigler do not object. And if anyone else is interested. I was the course director for NYLT last year I do know a bit about it.

 

[Kudu]

Apparently I should go back to my old vertically-striped referee shirt! It seems this new one with the concentric circles is sending the wrong message!

 

The Scouter.Com Moderator Team should take a good long hard look at their inability to act decisively.

 

At the very least, people should be required to spin their personal attacks into a new "Issues and Politics" topic or face a month suspension.

 

And note that this is the second time that FScouter has introduced "hate" into this thread.

 

I should let that go unanswered?

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

Reading your questions on NYLT, the answers to almost all of your questions is yes. I would like to do a spin off to answer your questions if you and johndaigler do not object.

 

Plase do, Dan! This is very good news.

 

Rick