when do you start a new Troop?

[rkfrance]

When is the best time to start a new Troop, Pack, Crew? Is there ever a good time to start a new unit? Would you start a unit with just 1 patrol or den? Would it be better to feed them into an existing unit?

 

All good questions to consider. Here's my take. I am involved in many areas of the District I serve. I am also one of the members directly responsible for starting new units. We started a Pack 2 years ago. We went from 7 boys to start to 31 boys with a full compliment of Den leaders and proper level of Committee members in a little over a year and a half. How? My wife and I each had several years experience in Scouting. We had issues with the leadership of a previous unit we served. The District knew the issues. We waited. We bounced around to another unit, to have somewhere for our sons to go.

 

Now, we have a situation with the Troop our Pack was set up to feed into. We knew going in that eventually, we would/could start our own Troop if it was necessary. There are tons of issues with the leadership of the Troop across the street. We share the same UC. Restructuring that Troop is going to take some time. There are huge questions on how the leadership - particularly the SM will react. If he voluntarily or is requested to step down, over 1/2 of the leaders could also step down because they're related. Talk about stacking the deck. Then, there's other baggage, conflicts between parents and another Committee member that is gaining more authority in the Troop. It is deep and there is no quick fix.

 

Last week, our son, who is a PL, but usually ends up serving as ASPL because of attendance, was attacked by several Scouts during one of their activities. The SM had "a talk" with all the Scouts. No one sent home. No parents called. No one removed for any length of time. Simply, no big deal. To top it off, he's a local police officer that just got promoted to SGT.

 

Now to go back to the beginning. When is the best time to start a new Troop?

[johndaigler]

The morning after you heard about your son being attacked.

 

jd

[dan]

When you have looked at all troops within your comfortable driving distance and they are not following the BSA program and are not willing to change.

 

The real issue is how does a scout, parent, den leader really know what is the proper way a troop should be run? I thought I knew when my son joined a troop; I did not have a clue. When I was a scout, the troop I was in did not follow the program, I learned a little from this forum, but not enough fast enough.

 

I see many issues brought up here and with new parents about the parents not getting enough information to satisfy them, this is not a reason to start a new troop. Communication should be coming from the scouts to the parents.

 

I have been involved with a troop that has some different ideas about the BSA program. Some things they do they know they are not following the program, but they know their way is better than the BSA program, some things they just do not understand how the program is suppose to work. I have been able to make a few changes, not as much as I would have liked, and now my son is 16 years old and did not get what he could of out of scouts, if the troop would have followed more of the BSA program. After I learned what is what, I see that this troop is not really that much different than many other troops. The troop is not perfect but having looked at other troops in the area, they are the best around the area.

 

There has been a few discussions here about how long it would take to change a troop, that is willing to be changed, most posters say about 4 to 5 years, in that time frame you son would be wrapping up his Boy Scout career, seems like a waste of time to me. Yes I am in Scouts for my son, not me.

 

Hindsight being 20/20 I would have started a new troop, or most likely restarted a troop that was dissolved the year my son joined Boy Scouts. My biggest issue with starting a troop was having a CO that I was willing to work for.

[Kudu]

The morning after you heard about your son being attacked.

 

Yeah, boys will be boys, but I've seen bullying go unpunished in Troops where the Scouters and/or members of the Troop Committee are related. The worst-case scenario is when the Charter Representative (CR) is related to the trouble-makers because some Councils do not care how bad the program is, as long as the CR is happy. You could appeal to the Institutional Head, but do you really want to?

 

District Executives have their own motivations for encouraging the formation of new Troops, but first see if there is another Troop in the area that you would want to join. Sometimes a Scoutmaster of a small "Troop in trouble" is just waiting for someone to take over for him so that the Troop does not fold on his watch. Ask your Council's District Commissioners.

 

The second thing to ask in either case is from where will you recruit new Scouts a year from now? If Scouting is not polarized in your area, then don't rule out recruiting in the local public school during school hours. Sometimes the decision is up to the Principal, try to find someone who knows him. Despite popular belief, if you put the right spin on Scouting, about half of an auditorium of sixth graders will indicate that they want to join. Selling their parents on the idea is another matter :-/ See The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

If you have only one Patrol ("or possibly two") start with them, especially if a couple of them appear to be natural leaders. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the father of the BSA's Patrol Method, recommended that when starting a new Troop, that the Scoutmaster start with only "The 'Chosen Few'" of the "keenest, most 'regular,' most respected boys" of the "sponsoring institution or the neighborhood."

 

Consider using Hillcourt's method of training called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." This is a six-month training course in which the Scoutmaster acts as Patrol Leader of his own "Green Bar Patrol" at least once a month to show the Scouts by example how to hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, Patrol Campouts, and introduces them to "new" Scout Games, songs, Troop opening and closing ceremonies, and other traditional program elements. See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[dan]

If you see a troop that the Adult leaders are appointing the SPL or/and ASPL, Guides, Instructors, etc. run to another troop.

 

If you see a troop that elects all postions run to another troop.

 

If you see a troop that is not utilizing JLT the lastest BSA version at least yearly run to another troop.

 

If you see a troop that bashes the BSA and only talks about the good old days run to another troop.

 

 

[Kudu]

If you see a troop that bashes the BSA and only talks about the good old days run to another troop.

 

Likewise be skeptical of phrases like "bashes the BSA" :-/

 

Kudu

 

[dan]

kudu

Believe it or not I agree with you!

 

The world has changed a little bit since William Hillcourt was involved with boys in scouting. It seems that you want to pick and choose which parts of the old and new parts of the program you want to use, just as I and many others, I think, would like to do. But since I am in the BSA I will follow the program, as they want it done. If I felt like you did, I would not be in the BSA. I have enough integrity to either follow the program or leave or start my own. Yes I know you will say something that I am just a follower of stupid rules. Which may be true but I will follow the rules or leave or try to change the rules in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. In my Opinion you are trying to change the BSA in a disorderly way and disobeying rules, to fit your needs.

 

[FScouter]

"Likewise be skeptical of phrases like "bashes the BSA" :-/"

 

That's not a surprising comment from Kudu considering he is one of the biggest BSA haters we have in these forums.

[Kudu]

That's not a surprising comment from Kudu considering he is one of the biggest BSA haters we have in these forums.

 

Likewise, be skeptical of people who make unScoutlike personal attacks on others, rather than engaging constructive dialogue on specific Scouting topics :-/

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Kudu, I realize you want to follow the original teachings and intent of Baden-Powells program and Bill Hillcourt and have real passion for it. I submit many people have as much passion for the current program.

 

Rather than ramble on though, lets do discuss a specific topic without an attack on the person. How would you like to start

[Kudu]

The world has changed a little bit since William Hillcourt was involved with boys in scouting.

 

Yes, back then Hillcourt wrote Scoutmaster handbooks that were a thousand (1,000) pages longer than the current edition.

 

This meant that he could devote more pages to the Patrol Method than the total number of pages in the entire current Scoutmaster Handbook. Likewise, he could go into great detail on how to start a new Troop, and how to reorganize a Troop that is not following the BSA program.

 

Human nature has not changed since then, nor has the theory of a well-run Patrol. It is just not as well documented these days.

 

It seems that you want to pick and choose which parts of the old and new parts of the program you want to use, just as I and many others, I think, would like to do.

 

You seem to believe that there is some sort of virtue in remaining ignorant of the 94 years of effort that has gone into the BSA program.

 

But since I am in the BSA I will follow the program, as they want it done.

 

That is nice as far as it goes, but some dedicated Scouters would rather go the extra mile.

 

If I felt like you did, I would not be in the BSA. I have enough integrity to either follow the program or leave or start my own.

 

I have worked with others in developing an alternative national Scouting program, but this topic is about starting BSA Troops, not alternative Troops. For what I consider to be the best program based on Baden-Powell rather than William Hillcourt, see the BPSA-USA:

 

http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/

 

Yes I know you will say something that I am just a follower of stupid rules. Which may be true but I will follow the rules or leave or try to change the rules in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

 

Unlike the "stupid rules" that limit the BSA's Uniform Method, nobody at BSA Headquarters has yet thought of any "stupid rules" about Hillcourt's Patrol Method :-) They just make up stupid misquotations, attributing to Baden-Powell things that were really said by William Hillcourt!

 

You seem to believe that Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" and "Junior Leader Training (JLT)" are somehow incompatible. They are not. The Green Bar Patrol teaches Scouts how to run a real Patrol using the example of the Scoutmaster. JLT teaches abstract leadership skills.

 

In my Opinion you are trying to change the BSA in a disorderly way and disobeying rules, to fit your needs.

 

That is simply an emotional reaction on your part. Exactly what rules have I disobeyed?

 

There is no better way to get a new Troop off to a good, solid start, than by showing by your own example exactly how to run a Patrol Meeting, and exactly how to prepare for and conduct a Patrol Hike and a Patrol Campout.

 

If you put these things off, then Scouts will justifiably believe that Patrol activities are not really essential to Scouting.

 

Kudu

[johndaigler]

Please, let's put our own personal interpretations of Kudu's goals, opinions and historical postings aside. If we focus on the topic and his present posts, it's kind of hard to say he's too far off the mark. We're talking about improving a unit that's chaotically unsuccessful and/or starting a brand new unit. We can't argue that not too many of us follow the real program %100, then be argumentative when Kudu states the same things -- and his suggestions point toward growth towards the modern day program. It's not far fetched that his ideas will likely lead said unit toward better success -- AND closer following of the modern day program.

 

jd

[dan]

 

You seem to believe that there is some sort of virtue in remaining ignorant of the 94 years of effort that has gone into the BSA program

You do not know that I am ignorant on the BSA program past or present that is just an emotional reaction on your part again. And you want to ignore the future, if you wish to live in the past thats fine, but why do you try to sell it as the current BSA program?

 

That is nice as far as it goes, but some dedicated Scouters would rather go the extra mile.

So you consider that breaking rules or ignoring guidelines, is going the extra mile, I am starting to understand you a bit more.

 

I have worked with others in developing an alternative national Scouting program, but this topic is about starting BSA Troops, not alternative Troops. For what I consider to be the best program based on Baden-Powell rather than William Hillcourt, see the BPSA-USA:

Than why in wide world of sports do you posts your alternates when posters ask about a BSA Boy Scout troop? In your mind do you think they are asking about the Kudu troop?

 

You seem to believe that Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" and "Junior Leader Training (JLT)" are somehow incompatible. They are not. The Green Bar Patrol teaches Scouts how to run a real Patrol using the example of the Scoutmaster. JLT teaches abstract leadership skills.

No I believe that the JLT program is a really good program, include NYLT and it becomes a great program, without having to put little twist in it. Adults trying to show scouts how to be kids has never worked and will never work. I know that scouts will follow other scouts a lot more than adults. When scouts are allowed to show, teach scouts you will get a lot more. You get scouts that learn how to lead like scouts not like adults. Times have changed scouts are different now, kids are smarter, and more knowledgeable, the old ways will not keep them interested, as in business you either change or fold.

 

That is simply an emotional reaction on your part. Exactly what rules have I disobeyed?

Besides the Scout Oath? I am not sure. I cannot believe I had to spell this out to you, it was stated in the last post.

Do you follow the GTSS or do you believe that the old ways are better?

johndaigler

Are you saying he can take the post off topic about kudu scouts, but we cannot pull it back to the BSA program? I do not understand?(This message has been edited by dan)

[johndaigler]

No, not at all. I was just trying to lessen the rhetoric a bit. Kudu offered ideas, go ahead and offer other (better) ideas! Let's just stay away from comments that are less about the posted ideas and more about the person doing the posting.

 

Dan, you talked about your Unit not following the program %100. My point is that if we're starting with a truly "lost" unit, and you already agree that most units aren't perfect, then why would we be so hostile to Kudu's suggestions. If a "lost" Unit tried Kudu's ideas, wouldn't they be closer to today's program than they are right now? His suggestions might never bring this struggling unit completely into %100 compliance, but they'd be a lot closer. I didn't read anything in this post from Kudu that suggests he'd take the Unit back to a previous version of the program. He was just offering suggestions for pulling them toward some version of success -- I don't see any of this as anti-BSA. As the Program changes over the years it doesn't mean that last year's version is horrific or wrongly directed -- just, we've found a new way to walk the path. Apparently, this Unit isn't using all the ideas and materials available to them to help teach and utilize the Program. It's possible a different suggestion might jumpstart them in the right direction.

 

I believe it's possible to work for changes and/or ideas we support from the inside of an organization. We don't have to accept the Program as it is without thinking of how it might be better. It doesn't make a Scouter a BSA basher to offer alternative thoughts or ideas -- I'm sure you know the phrase "loyal opposition". There are many ways to view the world and each will view the BSA Program differently - therefore, they'll implement the program differently. Remember, this is a terribly unsuccessful unit we're talking about-- anthing that helps them improve is a good idea!

 

jd

[Eamonn]

When do you start a new Troop?

Seems like an easy question.

Sadly the answer is not that easy.

I'm not going to split hairs and go on about who starts a new unit.

But (Yes you knew there would be a but.)I have found that Units that spring up out of no where because someone was upset and don't have the backing of a CO, tend not to last very long.

I just ended a ten year term, serving as a member of the District Key 3. As a District we had Quality District as a goal. The membership requirement for Quality does require that we end the year with one more unit than the year before.

That isn't that hard, as long as you don't lose too many units along the way.

We had a 3 year run where we didn't lose any units and then last year we took a big hit. We lost a Troop and four Crews. So we needed to start six units. It didn't happen, we only started one unit (A Ship) The really sad thing is that the goal for this year is the total at the end of 2005, which of course will be four less than we had at the end of 2004. If we carry on at only starting one unit per year it will take till 2009 to recover.

As a member of the key 3 I looked at school districts. Our Scout District covered three School Districts.

 

The information we got was really wonderful.

We knew what percentage of the students were receiving free school lunches. (I used this number to stop the Council from raising our Family FOS goal to high.)

We also looked at what percentage of the total available youth we were serving in each school district.

In my home area we ran about 26% in Cub Scouts 21% in Boy Scouts and 0.83% for Venturers.

The Boy Scout and Cub Scout numbers are above the National average. While we were very proud of what we were doing it's sad when you look at the numbers the other way.

We weren't serving 74% of the Boys Cub Scout age.

We weren't serving 79% of the Boys Boy Scout age and over 99% of youth that could be in Venturing weren't.

I have to smile when people go on about too many units. Maybe before we talk about there being too many units we need to look at what percentage of the youth we are serving?

Before starting a new unit lots of things have to fall into place.

We had a pack and a troop that had a big falling out with their CO. They left the Church and went to the American Legion.

The Church was upset. They had been a CO for a very long time and said that they wanted a Scouting unit.

The DE, the Membership Chair. and myself (then District Chair.) met with the church council. They had two big problems they didn't have any youth in the church who wanted to be in Scouting and they didn't have any adults who wanted to deliver the program. So of course it didn't happen.

Sadly the pack and the Troop who went to the Legion found out that the only meeting place available was in the bar, so that didn't work out either.

On the other side of the coin Pack 155 found that they had 16 Webelos Scout's ready to cross over. They with the blessing from the church started a Troop they got 12 of the Webelos Scouts, the following year they got 16 more. A lot of the pack committee crossed over with their kids and the Troop is doing great.

When I decided that I no longer wanted to serve at the District level. I looked at what we were doing for our older youth both in Scouts and in the community. Of course everyone said I was nuts starting a Sea Scout Ship in land locked Pennsylvania.

I suppose I could have started a Venturing Crew, but I'm not overjoyed about the material that is out there for Venturing. (That is just me!!) While we are not setting the world on fire, we now have 18 Sea Scouts and hope to have 30 by the end of the year. The Scouts are having a good time, I'm having fun. The Elks love the coverage they are getting in the local paper. Our COR has been accused of being my brother-in-law (He's not!!)

The main thing is that we are filling a need.

Our small town doesn't offer older boys a lot of activities, sadly our Boy Scout Troops are not doing much for older boys and there is nothing for older girls to do. Most of the kids we have are 16 and 17 years old.

If there is a way of fixing a unit, I'd strongly suggest trying to fix it.

Don't start a unit just because you are upset.

The units that start with the bear minimum of adults and youth have a really hard time making it and end up "Burning youth". Once a boy or girl has been in a unit that doesn't live up to their expectations it is really hard to get them back.

Leaders of new units tend to burn out very quickly. There normally just isn't enough people to spread the load.

Leaders who try to start a new unit and serve on the District must be really nuts. I know that I couldn't do it and if I tried Her That Must Be Obeyed wouldn't be a very happy camper.

Eamonn