I need some advice

[SWScouter]

Well, since your son was removed as SPL, is the troop now SPLless? I would think perhaps so. If the SM now wants to start doing things right, there should be an election for a new SPL and new PLs. You may suggest to your son to again run for SPL and really rally the troop to vote for him just to send a message to the SM to help the boys lead their troop instead of it being run by the SM!

 

Just a twisted thought on a possible course of action...

 

SWScouter

[scout-parent]

My son and the former leadership corps met with the scoutmaster last night. I believe the agenda was the SM telling the kids about the venture patrol. My son told me he was going to bring up other issues, but I'm not sure if he was able. Unfortunately, I had to work late last night and haven't spoken to him about the meeting. I will keep you posted.

 

I want to thank all the posters for their replies. I've been given a lot of information about the structure and reporting of a scout troop that I was unaware of. As soon as I get the report from my son, I'll let you know the latest.

 

Thanks

[Its Me]

I would react strongly to this. Even if things work out this SM has implanted a very harmful memory in these boys that they cann't lead. We can discuss this reason and that reason for why the SM did this, but if we look at the obvious reason it was to open up these positions for preferred boys and to disguise it as a Venturing opportunity.

 

I would call council with 20 questions on this matter. (the boys did this is that why he fired them? Can you be forced to join a crew? Should the SM have worked with the boys before he fired them? At the end of those 20 questions the council rep will liekly acknowledge that something is amiiss. Otherwise why have a local council?

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[Lisabob]

scout parent, that's a terrible situation and I wish your son the best in trying to resolve it.

 

Meechgalanne - I could understand why you would be tempted to go for the blow out with the SM in front of the troop. Anybody in this position would be justifiably angry and hurt by this SM's actions. However, most people respond poorly to "ambushes" like this, no matter how right you are and how wrong they are, and it could lead to a pretty nasty scene. So the question is: is the goal to enjoy a public moment of righteous indignation, or is the goal to try to resolve the underlying problem? Sometimes the two are not compatible.

 

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[ScoutNut]

My question has to do with the boys being "forced" to join a Venture Patrol (that's patrol NOT Venturing Crew, correct?).

 

Does the Troop currently have a Venture Patrol? If it does, maybe one of the Troops prerequisites for being a member is to have held a Troop leadership position? If it does not currently have a Venture Patrol, maybe this is the SM's weird way of starting one.

 

I really can't see using a Venture Patrol as a "punishment" for a Scout. Usually Scouts are excited about forming one. A Venture Patrol is made up of Boy Scouts, 13 yrs old & older, who participate in more challenging, high adventure type outings.

 

If you have to mess up on your job as SPL/PL to get in the Venture Patrol, then I for one would be messing up BIG TIME (& I bet the rest of the older scouts would be too)!

 

Something else is going on here that is not being communicated clearly. Scout-parent, if things were not resolved at that meeting, I think you should attend the next Troop Committee meeting & find out just what is going on.

 

[LongHaul]

     I think most of us agree the SM has acted improperly. Scout-parent, is this SM trained in his position? If so how long ago. Seems he has missed some of the very basic premises of Scouting and the Patrol Method. First in response to your statement that he rejiggers the patrol makeups, the patrols should be formed by the boys themselves with the exception of the New Scout patrol which is just that New Scouts or more specifically transitioning Webelos or 11 year old new boys. This should be a team of their choosing and should not be altered by outsiders. Second he must have missed the Patrol/Troop concept. The Troop is made up of Patrols formed by the boys, the Troop is NOT broken down into patrols. I usually us our country as an example. The Nation is made up of States it is not broken down into States. The Scoutmaster should no more realign the membership of the patrols than Congress should redraw State borders.  The Venture Patrol should also be made up of boys choosing to be members of that patrol.  Congress should not tell citizens which State they must live in.

      A meeting with the PLC,SM and the Troop Committee to discuss the removal of the PLs is needed to establish the policy for Leadership Roles within the Troop. If elected youth leaders are to be removed by the SM at his discretion without recourse how can the Troop members feel they have a boy run organization? The PL I elect is my leader not the SMs leader. If the person I chose does not get the job done the boys should be counseled to replace him if that is what the SM feels is necessary. The Patrol Method only works when the members of the patrol feel they can rely on one another and chose to work as a team. This seldom happens in groups made up of members not of their own choosing.

     The final decision here should rest with the PLC, it is after all their Troop.  Whether the ousted PLs have a vote or not could be a question if elections are held before the meeting.

 LongHaul

[Meechgalanne]

I realized you guys are right. A non attack approach probaly would be better.

[scout-parent]

A little more information has come to light about the last campout the troop went on. Below is an excerpt of my son's letter he's going to give to the committee at the next meeting;

 

They had asked an adult leader if they could go to the rock but had not asked to climb down it, as the obvious answer would have been no. The boy leaders found out what had happened rather rapidly, assembled all of the scouts at the campsite and took attendance by patrol. Then leaving some older scouts in charge back at the campsite reported the events to Mr. T, the acting Scoutmaster on the trip. They then walked to the edge of the cliff, calling the missing three boys names. They were not foolish enough to attempt to climb down after them as that could have caused an even bigger problem. Soon enough the boys responded and climbed back up. Because the adult leaders did not take the initiative to discipline the boys, Bobby as the Senior Patrol Leader said that being older scouts they should have not only known better than to do something so foolish but to also go back on their duties as good role models to the younger scouts. He then told them that he would try and get a suitable punishment for them worked out with the adult leaders and make sure that it was carried out because their actions were very irresponsible. Feeling afraid, these scouts whose parents were very active in the troop may have told their parents ( just speculation) about what bad leaders the scouts were in an attempt to get out of trouble. These parents may have led the charge in removing (names of removed leadership corp) from their previous positions of leadership. END of EXCERPT

 

The boys met with the SM on Monday and told him the above info. He wasn't at the campout and was surprised to say the least about what happened. No change in his decision to remove the boys.

 

During the discussion with the SM, my son said he was constantly being interupted by the SM when he was trying to talk. My son said "excuse me, I haven't finished speaking" and the SM went off on him about being disrespectful and that he wouldn't treat his teachers at school in this manner. My son replied that his teachers at school show him respect and let him finish his sentences. My son then continued that the SM should be showing the kids how to respect others and stepping on their speach isn't how to show respect. My son said it was all done in a conversational tone and not with "attitude".

 

Yesterday, my son called the Committee Chairman to get the name of the COR for the troop. He's trying to get everyone involved to reverse the decision. He was told that the COR had resigned (she was around for years, I just didn't know she was the COR) and that the Committee Chairman would be taking up the position in the future. As the CC and the SM are "tight" this isn't going to help.

 

Tonight, the parents of the deposed leaders are meeting to discuss what's going on and what we can do to help the boys. More about what we decide later.

 

The SM has reorganized the patrols, so the next election should give him the boys he wants as PL's. In an earlier post I explained how he does it.

 

The SM told the deposed boys that the venture patrol is a good thing and was a "reward" for them, while telling my wife it was a punishment. He's told several different stories to different people.

 

In answer to some questions;

The SM has been in place for about 20+ years and his troop was always known as a "tough" troop. If you got eagle from this troop, it was something. He's been trained etc. It's always been "his way or the highway". I've since found out that he has prevented several boys from getting eagle for whatever reason, I don't know.

 

The parents of the deposed boys are going to call the committee chair and request an emergency meeting of the committee. I'm going to call the district council and ask if they can send a representative to the meeting to at least watch if he doesn't have input. The longer I'm involved with this the more unfair it seems to me.

[scout-parent]

In answer to another question about is the troop without an SPL. The ASPL is the acting SPL. My son is going to run for SPL in the next election. But, because most of the leadership corps in now in the venture patrol, the PL's will be most of the kids whose parents caused the leadership corps removal in the first place.

 

At the meeting witht he SM on Monday, my son asked the SM if he really thinks the kids who climbed down the cliff would be good PL's when they can't show good judgment and take care of themselves let alone others. No response from the SM.

 

Thanks for the help.

[SemperParatus]

This SM should have retired years ago. He is running this troop as if it is his own. He has been around so long that he can no longer distinguish the troop from his own ego. If you don't have the numbers or the influence to remove him, then you will need to either suck it up or go elsewhere. Don't expect Council/District personnel to get too involved in this internal unit squabble.

 

I like the rock story...sounds like a variation on the 'Whitey saving Ronny cliff scene' in Follow Me Boys.

[eagle90]

A huge over reaction here. I think most of us and our troops have been in the position when the "wrong" scout was elected Patrol Leader or even Senior Patrol Leader. "Wrong", that is, to our way of thinking. What did we do? Unless it was a total disaster, you grin and bear it and remember that the term of office is only 6 months or a year at best, and look forward to the next election. Scout-parent, it sounds like your son has his head on his shoulders and is a better leader than the adults in this case. I would surely want him as part of my leadership team!

[firecrafter]

scout-parent,

I hate hearing about a situation like this and wish you the best in resolving it. Two things came to mind as I was reading through your longer post on 12/7. First, if you son is addressing the committee in a letter, the letter should be presented to the CC beforehand and a discussion of said letter placed on the meeting agenda. It sounds as if your son has gone about things the right way thus far, and putting his concerns on the agenda, perhaps asking for a chance to speak at the meeting, will show respet and courtesy for the members. Don't try blindsiding the committee, it will backfire. I speak from experience.

The second thing, since the COR has retired (and not been replaced), perhaps involving the Institution Head of your Charter Organization would be preferable to the CC/COR who may be biased.

I must agree with SemperParatus who said not to expect much involvement from District/Council in this matter. They will mostly tell everyone to place nice and leave you to your own solutions.

If the CO & CC are happy with the way SM does things, you are in a lose/lose situation. The SM is the person in charge of implementing the BSA program, and with the CO backing him, SM holds all the cards. Personally if I was that unhappy with SM's leadership, I would want my son to relocate to another unit where he could learn the values of Scouting from someone I felt had a true understanding of them. There are all kind of SM's, all kind of Troops. Find one that your son and yourself feel comfortable in.

[evmori]

Based on the excerpt, it seems the SM is the one creating the problem. It sounds like the Scouts have a plan to deal with the problem & the SM won't let them. Not good.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Mysontheeagle]

Of all the posts, Firecrafter is the first that identifies the issues without implied indignation. Whether the scoutmaster is "right" or "wrong" is immaterial with the information given. As with all things, there are two sides to every story. As a high school teacher and adult scout leader, I have come to understand that an adolescent mind does not understand things the way adult minds understand them. Teenagers are often reluctant to tell there parents of any negative parts they play in a situation. Having said that, it does sound like your son is going about trying to change the situation the right way (with respect for the committee and Scoutmaster.) Take Firecrafters recommendations to heart.

 

It does not sound like you are involved in your son's troop. If not, why not? Most young men who make Eagle, get there only from the support of their families (parental involvement). If you are involved with the troop, congratulations! Now go talk to the SM (also in a respectful manner) and find out his side of the story with an eye on resolution. (Again Firecrafter is right on)

 

These forums are good to get things off your chest, but generally bad for solving problems. Your energies might be better served talking directly to the SM rather than listening to some of these posts. Remember to "Run the 12" (mentally go through the 12 points of the scout law) as you talk with the SM.

 

I pray that your journey is a successful one.

 

Proverbs 13:10

[scout-parent]

We've spoken to the SM and the CC. More or less they say the kids that were removed were disrespectful and hence were removed. My son is a teenager, I have no doubt that he sometimes has attitude. The SM often confuses disrespect for disagreement. My son has a backbone and will stand up for what he believes is right. He's stood up for scouts that he thinks were unfairly treated by SM. Don't get me wrong, he's a kid, he can have attitude. As his father I know! Another example, he and his fellow scouts were on a ferry ride when another scout spilled water all over my son. He took his scout shirt off and wrapped it around his waist. The CC/ASM got all over him for being out of uniform yelling at him in front of the entire troop. He stood his ground and said his shirt was soaking wet and he wasn't going to sit around in a soaking wet shirt. Disagreement is not disrespect.

 

We've spoken to the CC and asked for a committee meeting. He said this wasn't a committee issue and said the next meeting would be the regularly scheduled meeting in Jan. My son is sending him an agenda he'd like to address at the meeting. The agenda items are (I think) 1) how to prevent this type of thing in the future. 2) Creating a troop constitution that spells out how removal of scouts should be done etc. 3) How patrols are formed 4) who gets to vote for what etc. 5) term limits (to give everyone a chance at leadership positions.

 

We've spoken to the district council and although they listened, they really show no interest in investigating anything.

 

My son's latest plan is to run for PL of his venture patrol and then run for SPL. The SM has created 3 large (10+ boys) patrols. We think he's trying to dilute my sons base of support for the SPL election. If he's elected SPL, he wants to make the ousted PL's instructors.

 

His eagle proposal was approved by the SM and CC and sent to the district. They say there is a new rule that he has to discuss the project with from someone from the district before they can sign off. I've never heard of this before, have you?

 

Although I'm not going to say my son is blameless in the situation, I do think it was handled poorly. I am extremely proud of how he is his working for change within his organization. Hopefully it will be a learning experience for him and the SM.