msnowman Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I fully appreciate that Boy Scouts is boy led. I think its a grand idea. When the Pack's two den chiefs asked if they could plan and lead a Pack meeting I was all for it (December is all theirs). However, as I am still finding my way in Nephew's troop I was wondering - is it ever appropriate for an adult (when the floor is open for suggestions) to present an activity idea? I don't mean insist on it being done, but offer it as an available option? For example, doing a rescue situation...it might be a nice suggestion, but maybe the guys haven't thought of it as an option. Right now I don't say anything because I don't want to rain on boy led...so I'll ask here. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 msnowman, depends, on many things...First are you a registered scouter? (not that it really matters but...it does give you more "wiggle-room")at you first suggestion expect to see the CC or secretary "go for and application". Then, there is a chain of command...nothing wrong with dropping hints to the SPL...remember the Adult leaders on the program side have already been working with the boys for months now...but in many troops by October the activity calendar is set and being actively worked towards...so don't be surprised with a "maybe next year" type answer...For an addition to a planned activity with the right finness it could be great...talk it over with the troop leaders first. Within a patrol, for a patrol activity, the PL can be offered an idea or two...perhaps in this context, the hint should go to the ASM mentoring that patrol or the SPL, for him to suggest "down stream" or give the ball to your Nephew and let him run with it... (I like that best of all)...Talk with the CC and SM whenever you have an idea...but expect (as in our troop) that suggestions are not free...the cost is... you get asked to help implement them! boy led does not mean adults do nothing...but we do what we do without seeming to do it...sorta Zen like... rock on anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msnowman Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 1 - First are you a registered scouter? - Yup, but not in the troop yet. 2 - This particular Troop does a very...um....laid back approach to calendars. (That's actually been the biggest struggle for me to get used to in coming from the Pack. Boy led? No sweat. No calendar? ARGH!) 3 - We don't have ASM's mentoring any patrol. The ASM's and SM are far more hands off (sometimes, almost to the point of being ineffectual, but I hold my own council on that since I am not willing to be an SM or ASM and figure they are doing what they feel is best). 4 - Giving the ball to Nephew - That is the option I go for most of the time. It gives him something to contribute and be excited about. I stay for Troop meetings, back in the corner with the other parents and rarely speak up unless I have a question or concern (Sunday they were working on an outing for the first weekend in November. I raised my hand for the SPL to see me and asked if that meant the Troop was not doing SFF. He didn't know it was the same weekend). Generally speaking, I figure I am at Troop meetings to write checks and because Nephew can't drive (oh goodness, 16 is just over 4 years away) and gas is too expensive to drive all the way home and back again in an hour and a half. Maybe Merit Badge Counselor Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 My oh my, how much work are you willing to undertake? Laid back "adult approaches" usually mean troop chaos of varying degree, with weak planning and program. As well as a lack of program direction. Looks like you got a real seat of the pants operation there. Any chance to interview another troop? Oh Well, the long term approach is to register as a Committee Member and start to 'work' the program...get the committee training and start by offering suggestions and askng mild, general questions at the committee meetings...you know, "gosh, in training they said...., or "I wonder if we had a year long plan (approved by the committee)in August and "meshed" with the District calendar... we propably would not have S.F.F. conflicts again"....and "the boys could have a long range training plan to work from".... sitting with the parents can even be used to slowly train and indoctrinate them...they can become your "5th column". If you help 'work' with your nephew's patrol (a NSP?), you can educate the boys in the patrol to rise above the seat of the pants type planning and do more properly planned patrol activities as they progress... but you really need more concerned parents to help in your re-education program...it is not painless...or easy. best of luck Anarchist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle90 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 We continually ask for suggestions from scouts, parents, committee members, friends, etc. for new activities, camping sites, etc. It's always good to get some new blood, some new ideas. If it's a great idea for a new activity that will benefit the boys, who cares who came up with it, if you are registered, etc. Let's not get bogged down in heirarchy and forget we are here to provide an exciting program for the boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troop185 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I agree with Eagle90. Some of our best troop campouts, were ideas we took from other troops. Your troop will miss out on a lot of exciting adventures if you wait for the boys. Scout do not have the resources and contacts that adults have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Eagle90 - "Let's not get bogged down in heirarchy and forget we are here to provide an exciting program for the boys. ". The reason for considering this is that most committee members and parents don't understand boy-led to the level of the SM. If a bunch of adults start giving ideas to the SPL and PLC members about "Do this and don't do that", the boys won't know who/what to listen to. I'd much rather handle that role through the SM/ASMs, who are much more aware of the boy-led dynamics. Also, you say we are to "provide an exciting program for the boys.". I disagree. We are to enable the boys to enjoy the program they choose for themselves. "Providing" a program sounds more like choosing, planning and carrying out - something that we are not supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 >>Laid back "adult approaches" usually mean troop chaos of varying degree, with weak planning and program. As well as a lack of program direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msnowman Posted October 19, 2005 Author Share Posted October 19, 2005 Thank you all for the hints, tips, thoughts. Train wrecks - gotta let them happen, that's the best educator, as long as nobody gets physically injured. I'm not of the warm & fuzzy "nobody's feelings get hurt" school - that's a learning experience too. This troop has no NSP, Nephew is a new Tenderfoot and is the youngest Scout in the Troop. The troop is small (though not as small as the Pack) at about 10 - 12 boys, and it is pretty 14+ heavy. Only 3 Scouts are under 14 and 2 of them are already first class (they were the class ahead of Nephew). The Pack isn't bridging anybody in, so there are no younger ones expected in the immediate future. I'll continue to live in the shadows, stepping forward once in a while with a suggestion, question or MRE's (a big hit at the last Camporee). I'm avoiding taking an active role in troop adult leadership as I want Nephew to stand on his own and just rely on me for rides and checks. LOL Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 eagle90 & troop180 - It's not that ideas can't come from the outside. I agree that boys, left to their own devices, will often plan the exact same program from year to year. The trick is to get the boys to come up with the ideas. Make them think it's truly their own, even when you know it came from somewhere else. Often in committee meetings, a parent will suggest an idea for an activity. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes I'm not impressed. If it sounds good, I'll keep it in mind and figure out how to get it into the boys heads. If the idea doesn't sound that good to me, I'll just say something like "get your son to sell it to his peers and work it through the system". The parents often think I can make anything happen. And, truth is, often I can. But I don't like to do it unless I think it's a really good idea. Here are some subtle ways you can get ideas into the guys heads and hopefully get them to adopt them as their own: - Scoutmaster minutes - work an idea or concept into your minute. - Scoutmaster conferences - get the guys to talk about what they'd like to do, and then explain to them how to get that into the plan. - SM/SPL discussions - I can give the SPL ideas to think on without him worrying about me taking over. These can be very effective - Present goals at beginning of planning process. I give the PLC goals I'd like them to work on. Often these turn into activity ideas. - Present your vision to the troop's leaders. This is part of the new Troop Youth Leader Training curriculum. - Build a folder of activity ideas. Bring that folder to the planning sessions. Make sure the "good ones" are in there. And that's just a start. There are lots of ways of getting your suggestions across, without taking over and planning for the boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingagain Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 There's alot of good suggestions here but I generally agree there is nothing wrong with presenting ideas and I agree with EagleinKY that the best approach might be through the SM or the Committee. Having your nephew bring up ideas is not a bad way to go either. The approach may vary depending on to what degree the troop is Boy Led. I was in a similar position 4-5 years ago. The unit was in a rut camping in the same places they had gone to the last 3-4 years doing the same things. Given this history the Boy leadership at that time had no other experiences. I asked the committee has the Troop ever done this or gone here. I said I would be willing to help out with the logistics and planning if anyone thought they would be interested. Trips were suggested to the scouts, they expressed interest and I did more of the work on my own, but now have a cadre of scouts that help plan these trips. They also now have a background of experiences they can draw on to help plan Troop outings and are not afraid to suggest things they havn't done before. I still suggest outings. Some are OK'd, others postponed and some rejected. But I recognize this is their unit(the boys) and if they don't want to do something I suggest that's their perogative. I guess the point is, as others have said, if you make suggestions be prepared to help make them happen. Good luck. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Um, OK, I realize that a Den Chief is a Boy Scout position, that he reports ultimately to his SPL, & that his SM should be keeping tabs on what he is doing as a Den Chief. I also realize that "boy led" is a real "hot button". What I don't understand is how a Boy Scout Troop's CC, SM, ASM, SPL, PL, or anyone else in the Troop besides the Den Chiefs involved, has anything to do with planning a CUB SCOUT PACK MEETING! If the Pack's committee & the Pack's CM have approved the Den Chiefs planning & leading a CUB SCOUT PACK MEETING, it is up to the PACK LEADERSHIP (CM & CC), NOT the Troop's Leadership, to sit down with the boys & work out the particulars. If msnowman is on the PACK committee & helps in planning Pack meetings, then I am sure she can offer up any suggestions she feels are appropriate when the Den Chiefs meet with the CUB SCOUT PACK committee. Of course, if one of the Den Chiefs is her nephew, she can give him all the ideas she wants while at home. Then it will be up to him what he does with them. Or am I reading the first post incorrectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I took it that the pack situation was just used as an example, which led to msnowman's question " I was wondering - is it ever appropriate for an adult (when the floor is open for suggestions) to present an activity idea?" We ran with the question as being "Is it ever appropriate for an adult to suggest an activity idea to the PLC?". We've then been talking about methods of achieving that, within the boy-led system. msnowman - am I correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 AHHHHHHH! The light bulb flickered in finally. Sometimes the old brain cells just don't talk to each other very well! Gee, could be lack of sleep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msnowman Posted October 20, 2005 Author Share Posted October 20, 2005 EagleinKY said "I took it that the pack situation was just used as an example, which led to msnowman's question " I was wondering - is it ever appropriate for an adult (when the floor is open for suggestions) to present an activity idea?" We ran with the question as being "Is it ever appropriate for an adult to suggest an activity idea to the PLC?". We've then been talking about methods of achieving that, within the boy-led system. msnowman - am I correct?" Yes, that is essentially what I was asking...Is it ever appropriate for an adult to offer an activity suggestion to the Troop either via the PLC, directly to the SPL or otherwise. I'm sorry if I caused confusion. I was using the Pack meeting as an example of being on board with the idea of Boy Led. Nephew did it as a Webelos just to try Boy Led before he hit the Troop and had a great time and his meeting was a big success. The Den Chiefs (one is Nephew, the other is his friend, a frequent guest at our home) approached me as CM to ask if they could conduct a Pack meeting. Since December is tradtionally our "party" month, I told them they could plan December's. We will be sitting down together to work things out (for example, they need to know and be sure to include certain things in every meeting like an opening, awards & closing) but it has nothing to do with Troop leadership or Troop committee, it is something they want to try. Again - thanks to everybody for your input...this is exactly the kind of help I was hoping to find. Michelle CM - P102 DL - P102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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