Bad Patrol Leader

[Bob White]

We are not talking about "training" we are talking about leadership development, and that encompasses a lot more than just training. There is coaching, counseling, mentoring, and other skills involved besides just the act of training.

 

I do not understand the reluctance to the thought that an adult leader would want to do everything he could in the way of leadership to help a scout succeed rather than deem him unfit or untrainable and give up on him. I would think that you would want the scoutmaster to be a friendly guide and not a commanding boss?

 

Since the origins of the BSA the supportive coach rather than the order barking superior has been the model for good scoutmastership.

 

No one has said that nothing can be done, what was said was help the scout make a decision on what to do. Why is that such a repulsive notion to anyone?

 

How long should the scoutmaster try to help a scout develop? If you are not there to help every boy throughout his membership, then why are you there at all?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[evmori]

hacimsallk,

Good point!

 

Training, leadership development, mentoring, counseling, eating, sleeping, etc. All great! But if a Scout doesn't have the desire to succeed or thinks he is doing just fine all the training leadership development, mentoring, counseling, eating, sleeping, etc. won't help. Like I posted before, you can teach anyone anything. It's up to them to learn what they are being taught.

 

With all the training & leadership development & mentoring & counseling & eating & sleeping, not every Scout will become a good leader.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[hacimsaalk12]

"I do not understand the reluctance to the thought that an adult leader would want to do everything he could in the way of leadership to help a scout succeed rather than deem him unfit or untrainable and give up on him."

 

i think that two months is enough time to try all these things. if after two, or maybe tree months, he still isn't the leader that you need, then i would "give up" on him.

 

" No one has said that nothing can be done, what was said was help the scout make a decision on what to do."

 

most scouts who think they are doing a good job, will not step aside, or step down. they believe that they are doing a good job, so why would they. i would give the scout a choice, then if he still decides not to step aside or down, then i would pursue it farther.

 

 

"We are not talking about "training" we are talking about leadership development, and that encompasses a lot more than just training. There is coaching, counseling, mentoring, and other skills involved besides just the act of training. "

 

now you are contradicting your self again. you said that scouts should be trained "If he has not had the training... "

 

 

"If you are not there to help every boy throughout his membership, then why are you there at all? "

 

you can't take a year or two, and spend it on developing one boy into a leader. during this time his patrol, and the troop in general suffers. now its not only about one scout, its about the whole troop. while you were "training" this one boy to be a leader, other scouts who are natural born leaders could have already left the troop.

 

"No one has said that nothing can be done, what was said was help the scout make a decision on what to do."

 

you said that no one has the right to take away a position. you said that they should just counsel the scout about to do.

 

[Bob White]

Hacimsaalk,

Think about this. You are a scout for 7.5 years, and you are willing to let an adult leader make a decision about you and stop trying to develop you after two or three months? I hope you don't mean that. A boy is far to important to just stop trying after 3% of his scouting career.

 

You say "you can't take a year or two, and spend it on developing one boy into a leader"

 

You are right, a good leader will not take two years...he'll take seven and a half. That's what we are there for. As a leader you learn to evaluate who needs what help, who is ready for the next step, and who can be delegated to and maintained. As I said it is a program delivered one boy at a time. Each getting what they need based on their own needs and characteristics. If you were the scout have a difficult time would you ever want that leader to give up on you?

 

I do not understand your hostility toward this, this is not a bad thing. We are talking about helping each scout get what they need to develop through scouting. This is about putting the scout first, rather than leading by ording others to do what you want to see get done. You want boys to run the troop, well this is how it happens, by talking to the individual scouts, letting them make the decisions and then helping them with the tools they need to follow through.

 

When a scoutmaster has done the job right, the scout feels he has done it himself, and rightly so, rather than just following what someone "above him" told him to do.

 

And, what I said was that as the scoutmaster I don't hire patrol leaders so I don't fire patrol leaders.

 

 

[evmori]

hacimsaalk,

Excellent insight. If you aren't already, you will be a good leader.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"And, what I said was that as the scoutmaster I don't hire patrol leaders so I don't fire patrol leaders."

 

Bob is trying very hard to avoid saying who, if anyone, can fire patrol leaders. That seems to be because he doesn't think they should be fired, even if they aren't performing adequately. He has more faith than some of us do that a boy who isn't doing the job will either step down or improve in time to avoid disrupting the program for the boys he is supposed to be leading. I certainly respect the idea that adult leaders should train youth leaders and work with them to improve rather than just dumping them at the first sign of trouble. But it's unrealistic to think that nobody will face the situation in which a boy needs to be removed from a leadership position for the sake of the other boys in the program.

The statement above at least suggests that the rest of the patrol could "fire" their leader, since they hired him by electing him. I'm not sure that would be the best way to handle the situation, since it would pit the boys against each other, but by Bob's logic, it may be the only way.

[hacimsaalk12]

" improve in time to avoid disrupting the program for the boys he is supposed to be leading"

 

sure he will improve in time if you concentrate directly onhim for the next 7 1/2 years.

[johndaigler]

I'm with BW - his last post sums up who we are and what we do.

 

Going back to Meamemg's original post, she asked how do you get rid of a bad patrol leader. It seems to me, BW is just saying that the problem is best solved before we get to that point.

 

Here are the complaints:

 

He misses alot of meetings. He doesn't tell the patrol about upcoming campouts, so thanks to him your whole patrol didn't get to go to the camporee. He decided to not go to the PLC meeting and didn't bother to tell anyone, so of course his APL didn't know that he should attend.

 

If we talk about kicking him out, we're saying that these issues are untenable, unsolvable and we're at the end of our rope. IMHO, it would be difficult to show that in two months' time we've tried every trick we know to help improve this boy's sense of responsibility and communication skills. Sure, he's frustrating - even annoying. But what truly has been done to help speed up this boy's leadership learning curve? Was this boy a total stranger? Didn't the adults around know what they were getting and the kind of support he'd require? Letting them lead is one thing, but we're supposed to be the invisible saftey net - and, of course, the teachers of leadership skills.

 

Besides all that there are few better leadership training exercises for everyone else in the patrol than to see and work with this boy.

 

If I was a boy in this patrol, I'd be mad as [edited by a staff member ], but I'm not sure if my angst would be focused on the ineffective patrol leader. It seems to me there are others who should share the responsibility.

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[evmori]

JD,

I don't think anyone is try to kick the PL out. What we (or at least me) are saying is not all Scouts will be good leaders & when this happens it isn't always the SM (or other adults) fault.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

That is precisely what the topic has been. The very first line in the original post is, "How do you (the youth) remove bad youth leaders from office?"

[evmori]

From office not Scouting!

[Lynda J]

Like I have said before. I have know great men who were not great leaders and I have knows great leaders that were not great men.

Leaders are seldom born. It is a learned skill. In most cases people that show good leadership skills early on have observed people being good leaders. Some leadership skills are learned by training. A boy will not always be a good leader in his first leadership position. But he will develope skills as he learns to take more control

and as he observes others.

[Centreville Scout]

In our Troop, all youth leadership positions are for six months. Once you're a PL, you can never be it again. Same for the SPL.

 

I would keep trying until the end of the term. If he isn't leading, make sure the APL does some leadership work.

[ScoutNut]

I usually try to stay away from argumentative threads, but I accidentally peeked at this one & have to put in my 2 cents.

 

I have to agree with Bob W. & John D. Good leadership is not something that is simply genetic or appears instantly. It is learned. Some pick it up quickly (how fast you learn something IS genetic), others take longer, still others take a lot of time, effort & repetition to have something finally click.

 

One thing you can not do is elect someone PL & expect him to become a great (or even mediocre) PL the moment his name is announced. Especially if this is the first time he has held that position.

 

There HAS to be a learning curve involved, & if there is learning happening there should also be some teaching going on. A boy can NOT learn something (anything) simply thru osmosis & trial & error. There should also be some teaching & mentoring by the ADULT leaders. That is our JOB. Per the Vision Statement of the BSA, one of it's purposes is to: "Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership."

 

Ed states that he is in favor of kicking a boy out of his leadership position, but not out of scouting.

 

Hacimsaalk12 states that after 2 or 3 months you should "give up" on a Scout who is not preforming his job up to expectations.

 

What exactly do you think will happen with this Scout who has been "given up" on & kicked out of his POR? Should he stay with a Troop who he KNOWS has "given up" on him? If they have "given up" on him, will he receive any more training or chances to learn? Will HE feel like he will get any more chances? Hacimsaalk12, how would you feel if this had happened to you 3 years ago? Do you think you would still be achieving the rank of Eagle at 15? How about 5 or 6 years ago? Would you have even joined a Troop?

 

When you "give up" on a boy, chances are pretty good he will "give up" on the Scouting program too. When we "give up" on a boy (especially after only 2-3 months!) we "give up" on our responsibility as adult leaders in the BSA to "Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership."

 

 

BTW - The original poster was planning how to have a PL removed from office even BEFORE this PL was elected. Talk about "giving up" on someone.

 

Sorry - I am now jumping down from my soapbox & running quickly for cover!

 

[hacimsaalk12]

"One thing you can not do is elect someone PL & expect him to become a great (or even mediocre) PL the moment his name is announced. Especially if this is the first time he has held that position."

 

no body said that he was suppossed to be a good leader, right away. the problem in this particular post is that it has been going on for monthes. im at this point he has had all the training that he is going to be able to stand.

 

"There should also be some teaching & mentoring by the ADULT leaders. "

 

there should be SOME teaching and mentoring. there is only so much of this you can do. after that it goes in one ear and out the other.

 

"Hacimsaalk12 states that after 2 or 3 months you should "give up" on a Scout who is not preforming his job up to expectations. "

 

i didn't mean giving up on him totally. after 2 or 3 monthes of this so called teaching and mentoring, i think that it should become serious. this is the time when you really ask yourself and the troop if he has enough potential to keep around.

 

"What exactly do you think will happen with this Scout who has been "given up" on & kicked out of his POR? Should he stay with a Troop who he KNOWS has "given up" on him? If they have "given up" on him, will he receive any more training or chances to learn?"

 

it depends on the scout. some will stay in, others would drop out. the way i look at it is, the adults mentored him for almost a half a year. he still didn't want to change and step up to the job, so it is his and only his fault.

 

if it were in my troop he would have many chances, after he grew up and matured more. then, when he shows he is ready, he can be re-enstated to his positioned, all-the-while, he will still be mentored by the adults.

 

"When we "give up" on a boy (especially after only 2-3 months!) "

 

but this is after he has let down his patrol for 3 months. all that time he is being trained and mentored, and he still isnt changing, so one of his patrol-mates brought it to the SM's attention. then after another 2-3 monthes of really concentrating on him, it is time to really evalute him and decide whether or not there is any potential at all

 

"we "give up" on our responsibility as adult leaders in the BSA to "Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership."

 

yes, adult leaders have that responsibility, but the scout doesn't have to have a position (such as PL) for the adults to train him in all these. if you remove a PL, in no way are you not teaching these values. you are re-enforcing them if you ask me. citizenship- if he is a boss, and he mis-treats his employees, do you think they will keep quiet about it? if he gets elected to a political position, and he does a terrible job, do you think he will get re-elected, NO. service- he would do his patrol a service, if he stepped down, since he isn't doing his job.

 

leadership- you can train him after he steps down, or is voted out of office. this also shows that in real life if he isnt a good leader, people aren't going to want him in control.

 

"Sorry - I am now jumping down from my soapbox & running quickly for cover! "

 

you'd better run boy. You can run but you can't hide.