Bad Patrol Leader

[hacimsaalk12]

it is most certainly not a leaders fault that a boy does not have leadership skills. he should be able to show them with or without training. if he has them, they will naturally flow, and show. if he doesn't, they wont show, and 9 times out of 10, he wont get elected.

 

bob- i guess since BSA doesn't outline any way to "punish" a boy, then it is up to the SM/SPL to decide. if they decide that they personally want to "impeach" him, then they have the power. if the patrol wants to take a vote to "impeach" him, then they can. very rarely will a scout step aside and give up his position.

 

 

 

SR540Beaver- no offense taken. after browsing the forums, i found that about 90% or more are scouters, leaving only about 10% to be scouts.

 

[Bob White]

it's unfortunate that you have been lead to believe that as a scout, hacimsaalk12. That really is not the case. Leadership is not something that you either have or don't have. It is a learned skill. Someday perhaps you'll decide to become an adult scout leader. When you take the training, (and please do not think that after several years as a scout you do not need training) you will discover that not only is it the scoutmaster's responsibility to develop junior leaders, it is his or her #1 responsibility.

 

Any scout can gain leadership skills if the scoutmaster understands the methods and leadership styles of scouting.

 

Being a scoutmaster is not about being a master of scouts, it is about being a master of scouting skills. To a scout the skills may seem to be about cooking, firebuilding, knots etc. And to some degree that is correct. But as an adult leader the skills of scouting is about the use of the methods of scouting in order to achieve the aims, in order to achieve the mission.

 

Telling scouts what to do is not a skill.

[hacimsaalk12]

it is not a SM's job to teach scouts. leadership is often learned, not taught. it is one of those trial and error things. if you mess up, your SM tells you. if you are doing a good job, your SM tells you that too. you can train a kid until you run out of funds to do so, and he can still be the worst leader you ever saw. the best raining is a positive role model, and trial and error. i would say the SM's main goal should be to attend meetings, and "ADVISE" the scouts,after all the troop is boy run, and trained, not SM run and trained. it is much easier for an older scout to "mentor" a scout about being a leader, than it is for a SM.

 

as far as teaching scouts- the SM chould have part in that, but the older boys should do it for the most part. it helps them develop leadership. scouts are more willing to listen to a fellow scout, than to a scouter. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[evmori]

"Leadership is a learned skill."

 

Throwing a football is a learned skill. But not everyone can throw a football as well as Terry Bradshaw or Dan Marino or John Elway. Some do it better than others even with the same training. Leadership is no different. If a Scout doesn't have the want or ability to be a leader, all the training in the world is not going to make him a good leader. And that is not the fault of the SM or whoever else trained him. Actually, it's no ones fault! Not all boys are meant to be leaders.

 

Since the BSA has no documented procedures for the removal of a PL, I would say how this is done can be different from Patrol to Patrol.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Bob, I'm confused by your responses. You seem to be saying that if a non-performing boy can't be persuaded to step aside, that it's his decision and nobody else can (should?) do anything about it. Yes, I understand that you think this situation shouldn't arise, and that perhaps it can be fixed even if you inherit the problem. But if you really think that the decision is entirely up to the boy leader, isn't in fact true that you think, as I surmised, "the boys in the troop or patrol facing this situation must simply suffer through the lack of leadership until his term is up" if he won't step down? If that's not your position, why don't you say so? To put it another way, who, if anyone, has the POWER to remove a boy from an elected leadership position?

 

[FScouter]

Some boys have more of a natural ability than others. Those that are having trouble need more coaching and support from the SM. Can it really be so bad that the only solution is to give up and yank him from his position before his term is up?

[watercub]

There are times when the adult leadership has to intervene. Recently, some of the PL's in our troop engaged in behavior that was so contrary to the Oath and Law, they became instantly ineffective as leaders. Since the undesirable behavior was hazing and intimidation, the Scouts felt powerless to take their own action. So, sometimes you have to make a judgment call on who can be a leader. We had to do this for the health of the unit.

[Venividi]

We once had a patrol that elected a PL who rarely went on a campout, often came late to meetings and almost always left early, sat out of patrol competitions, and sat quietly while his patrol did campout planning. This patrol then re-elected the scout to a second term as PL! The patrol members viewed the PL job as extra work, and preferred being in a poor patrol over stepping forward and taking responsibility to improve the patrol. Not too different than those parents that think supporting the troop is "someone else's job:.

[Bob White]

As the Scout leader your job is to help the scout come to his own decision and to help him to implement that decision. I am not trying to "lead" the scout to any specific conclusion. I ask the scout qwuestions and listen to his answers and help him to think the situation through. As I said the range of decisions can be anything from getting better as a leader to stepping aside, and a number of other cjoices in between. The important thing being, that whatever the decison is, that it is his decision. The scout learns nothing from you telling him what to do.

 

Hacimsaulk,

Please understand that scouting from an adults perspective is differnet that from a scouts, what you are trained to do and what we are trained to do are different, because we have different goals and responsibilities. I have the advanctage of have beed trained as both a youth and an adult so there are things in scouting I am aware of that you have not yet been exposed to. To say that leadership cannot be taught can easily be disproven. Just look at the scouting program alone, we have over 20 leadership courses for youth and adults. Think of all the books written on leadership skill, the college courses on leadership. Consider Military accademies alone, they are primarily leadership academies. So absolutely leadership can be taught.

 

What you will find is that not everyone chooses to learn all they can. Some just learn what they have to, or what they want to. But as a scout leader my responsibility to continue to try and develop each boy based on their own needs and characteristics stays the same.

 

Besides, would you rather have a SM who believes that the scouts can learn to do anything given the right direction and encouragement r one who feels that one a small minority have any potential and that most will need to be told what to do?

 

ed,

Not everyone has to be a Hall of Fame quarterback to be able to throw a football well. Thousands of kids each year learn QB skills and various degress in all age levels. If quarterbacking was a natural skill then why was the first forward pass not done unitil well into our evolutionary history? You make it sound that unless you are a phenomenon then you are nothing.

 

Every scout can learn leadership skills to some degree. And with a good teacher many can learn more than you give them credit for. But just like some adult leaders, some will never quite understand it all. Sometimes it's because they choose not to.

[evmori]

You make it sound that unless you are a phenomenon then you are nothing.

 

Missed the point again!

 

I will restate! Not all Scouts will be good leaders. Just like not all quarterbacks will be good passers.

 

We can teach anyone anything. Whether they learn is the key. Some will. Some won't. And it could be the teachers fault or it could be the learners fault or both could be at fault. But it isn't always the teachers fault.

 

Since the BSA doesn't seem to have any method to remove a PL, I propose the PLC can remove a poor leader.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

Ed, how long should a SM work in training a boy leader before he concludes it is hopeless and that the only solution is to remove the boy from his position? How long?

[evmori]

I don't know, FScouter. What would you suggest?

[hacimsaalk12]

FSscouter- i think that a term is enough. you try and train him, like bob says. if he still ins't leader material by then, you train him (like bob says), and train him, and train him until he is. because of course you can't take a position from a boy for any reason.

[Hunt]

"How long should a SM work in training a boy leader before he concludes it is hopeless and that the only solution is to remove the boy from his position? How long?"

 

It seems to me that that would depend on how much his failure to perform adequately affected other Scouts. If he's the bugler,well, there's not much harm in working with him for as long as you think there's a glimmer of hope. If he's a PL, it's a different story. What if you had a PL who repeatedly cancelled patrol meetings for questionable reasons. You work with him, and he promises to do better, but keeps on doing it. How many times do you let it happen? You have a responsibility to help him lead, but you have a responsibility to the other boys, too.

[hacimsaalk12]

hunt- you couldn't only let that happen a few times, you must let it go on, because no one has the power to dismiss him, not even the SM. you just train and train and train until you are blue in the face.