Getting Troop to Use Patrol Method

[CNYScouter]

Currently the Troop my son belongs to does not use the patrol method.

Our SM has Woodbadge, but no other leader has any training

I will be taking SM training this spring and Woodbadge this summer.

 

I discussed training with our CC but he feels that training takes time away that he could be spending with the scouts and cant understand why I want to take more training.

 

Troop meetings consist of an opening, announcements, scouts doing merit badges or working on ranks (all taught by adults) and a game. Most weeks there are older scouts just hanging out and often do nothing. We have low attendance at most camping trips (all planned by SM or CC), but almost every scout goes to summer camp. We can not get our scouts to wear uniforms and have boys in leadership rolls but are doing nothing in that roll.

 

One of the problems we have is that our SM and ASM are very long-term Scouters. SMs training came back in the 1960s and ASMs were scouts in the troop when they were kids and have been with the troop ever since (35+ years) and run the troop the way it was done back then.

 

From doing reading about SM training and the Patrol Method, it seems that the issues we are having can all be solved by using the Patrol Method and moving towards a boy run troop. I have overheard other leaders in the troop say that boy-run troops do not work and we would never go that route.

 

My son likes this troop and does not want to switch. He will easily earn his Eagle rank if he stays with this troop, but he will be missing out on the other aspects that scouting should be bringing.

 

The Troop has a committee meeting this week and what would be the best way to try to introduce the idea to use the patrol method and become a boy run troop?

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Welcome to the forum! I suspect we'll be hearing a lot from you in the months to come!

 

The troop is stuck in a rut that has been dug by untrained leaders who think they know what scouting is. It will take some time to turn around this MB mill. You won't be able to fix this alone and you'll need some allies. There may be strong personalities involved with vested interests in the status quo. Have you spoken to the other adults yet? do any of them share your concerns? How about the unit commissioner or the District committee? They should be involved in finding a solution. Have you had a private, non-confrontational discussion with the SM? Give him your vision and see what he says. Let us know what happens!

[NIscouter]

You note your son likes this troop. I would try to isolate him from this to prevent your feelings from clouding his opinion. This situation appears to have a large amount of inertia and peoples' time invested into it, and it will take a similar amount of effort and diplomacy to reverse it (as noted by Trevroum). You might want to look first to the new adults to help you on this as they will be the most open to change. I would start with small stuff (like patrol meetings during the troop meetings)to get the boys into the swing of the patrol method and work into boy planned meetings last of all. The adults need to be trained on this as much as the boys - what about JLT as a vehicle to move this forward? You also mentioned that you are taking SM training? The SM may see this (and you) as a "threat" to his leadership. Why not start with the MC training?

[Eagledad]

>>You might want to look first to the new adults to help you on this as they will be the most open to change.

[OldGreyEagle]

I dont know if I have said this lately but being a Boy Scout was the most fun I ever had growing up. Amoungst going to the Grand Canyon and Glacier National Park and the weekends, I had a blast! Its this joy I want to pass along to the scouts. When I first started, I did it the way I was used to, adults ordering the scouts around and getting things done right. It took a few of the other adults to bring to my attention that as dual quad Holley carburators had gone the way of Dinosaurs, so had my style of "scouting". I had to adapt to a boy run unit. it was hard and I can tell you just as the scouters in the initial post say boy run troops dont work, I didnt think they could either. And in a way they dont, I mean they dont work the way an adult troop would run. Then again, they arent supposed to because it is a boy run unit. There are errors, there are mistakes, there are teachable moments that are much more powerful because the boy has experienced it, not because he was told it. When you live a leasson you tend to learn it better than when you are told a lesson.

 

Anyway, take small steps and push ahead, the more allies you can assemble, the beter

[CubsRgr8]

I respectfully disagree with Nlscouter because that's the route I took three years ago with no success. I joined the committee, immediately took MC training, attended all committee meetings, and slowly began to raise my concerns about best practice for implementing the Aims & Methods. To date, my concerns have been pretty much ignored. The undercurrent I sense is "you're not a trained ASM, so how can you possibly know how to run a troop?" So, I have decided that I need to become a trained ASM and take Woodbadge this summer so that I can speak with some authority at the committee meetings. I think CNYScouter has the right idea.

[Proud Eagle]

Live, breathe, eat, sleep, and think Scouting.

 

Go to trainings, they are great. Take SM training, New Leader Essentials, Youth Protection, etc. Get committee training too. Even if you want to be an SA, it would still be good to know the committee info. There is no such thing as too much training (though it is possible to take the wrong training for your needs, for example taking Cub Scout training to learn how to fix a Boy Scout Troop is going backwards).

 

Read books. Read lots of books, manuals, guides, anything and everything you can find written by or about the BSA. (Start with basic stuff like the Handbook, SM Handbook, Committee Guidebook, Guide to Safe Scouting, and then move on from there.) Read, read, and read some more. Don't forget to think and plan and dream while you are reading. Try to think about the things you are reading from another angle than what it is presented in.

 

Go to your district's Boy Scout Roundtables. These may be a good opportunity to learn best practices from leaders who are actually using the 8 methods to achieve the aims, complete a part of the mission, and bring us all closer to the vision. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

 

I would suggest that if you are planning a crusade, keep your son out of it if possible. Let him go on enjoying the troop. (Know this: If the troop is not using the methods, he may one day look back and realise his Eagle doesn't mean as much as it could have. The system doesn't deliver full benefits unless it is being used properly.)

 

Be diplomatic. Don't go into a committee meeting and announce everything is going to pot. Instead, talk with some possibly sypathetic members of the committee before the meeting. This will help avoid a confrontation. After all, it is easier to talk someone into something one on one than it is to convince them they are wrong in public.

 

I know a bit about trying to guide a troop toward change. I am trying to nudge my own unit in the right direction. It requires a good deal of patience, and hope. You have to understand that in a given meeting you may only convince someone to take one baby step. Then the next they may take another. Keep in mind those are victories, even if small ones.

 

I would suggest you try to pose this as an issue of the troop needing to take a long hard look at itself, and at Scouting, and that it should be about making best use of the system BSA offers. That way it isn't the BSA v. the Troop, it is instead a more friendly approach. This will also offer a chance for everyone to explore the current model and the troops shortcomings on their own rather than one person coming in and declaring that what others think is great stinks.

 

(I have not used all of may own suggestions in my own experiences. Some of them are based on things I should have done differently or better. Others are just ideas that are completely untested. Use at your own risk.)

[alligator]

I can't believe the great discussions going on here!

 

Our Troop is in the throws of re-invigorating the patrol method as well. We are taking the 'get training and more training' approach. We sent five scouts to JLTC this last summer and will have two or more on YLTC staff this summer. We have a few Woodbadge trained adults (one more on the way) and several with outdoor and leader specific, etc. We don't always get it right, but the enthusiasm builds with each newly trained member.

 

Our problem seems to be finding enough time in everybody's schedules to get everything done at once! I guess we will need to learn a little patience along the way too.

 

Don't give up!

 

BL

 

[Bob White]

CNYScouter, I have sent you a private message.

BW

[Eamonn]

"One of the problems we have is that our SM and ASM are very long-term Scouters. SMs training came back in the 1960s and ASMs were scouts in the troop when they were kids and have been with the troop ever since (35+ years) and run the troop the way it was done back then. "

Hi and Welcome,

I hate to have to say this but... IMHO You are knocking your head against a brick wall.

Wood Badge back in the 1960's was as much about the Patrol as it was in the 70's, 80's and most part of the 90's.

This SM knows how it should be and has chosen not to do it. I bet that the CO along with a lot of the parents think that he is Mr. Scouting.

The choice you have is what do you want your son to get out of being a Scout?

The Easy Eagle? I hope not. Scouting is not only about advancement.

The only way a troop like this stops doing what it is doing is when it's not there anymore. The way to make it go away is not to be part of it.

Eamonn.

Hey Bob- Nice to see your name. I would have loved to read your take on this.

[EagleInKY]

Changing the dynamics of a troop without the Scoutmaster's blessing is a formidable task. Frankly, I just don't know if it can be done. I would suggest talking with the Scoutmaster privately. Invite him over for coffee and donuts (that always works for us Scoutmasters). Explain to him that you are concerned and know that changing is different. But, if he would like to see the program change, you are willing to help make it happen. If he's unwilling to make it change, you won't get anywhere.

 

If he's willing to try, be prepared for a long transition. You don't just turn on a boy-leadership switch. It will take at least two years to get there.

 

Good luck.

[NIscouter]

Cubrgr8 - my comment on the training was meant to convey the idea that you need to learn to crawl before you run. I am doing this myself - getting the MC training and outdoor training, getting ready to take the Wood Badge course this spring, and then see what training I need to fill the needs of the troop and my large knowledge and experience gaps. I think you need to look for allies in your committee - it is no fun to be a lone wolf. Proud Eagle was dead on with the live, eat and breathe scouting - this will give you the depth of knoweldge to overcome the naysayers. I hope PE will post one more time - his posts are at 666 - not a number to sit on too long!

[OneHour]

I can share CNYScouter's point-of-view. Our troop is the same; however, all 6 of our scoutmasters are trained. We are trying to implement the patrol method and boy run ideals, but they have not sticked, yet. The older boys in our troop do not like the patrol method, because they are so used to the adult-run method that were run before. If you check some of my previous postings, you will sense my frustration as CNYScouter. My only suggestion to CNYScouter is as pointed above, get all of the adults to training and buys-in in the patrol method and the boy-run ideals. Then introduce it to the boys. It will take time. We are in our 2nd year and we are not giving up. The boys are starting to adapt to the fact that they need to run the troop. Next step for us, to fortify the patrol environment and the patrol method. My guess is that our troop has another year yet to get to the ideals, but we're not giving up.

 

1Hour

 

ps: great to see your post again, Bob!

[anarchist]

Instituting change in a 'successful', entrenched operation is NOT a two or three year job...try 5 to 7 years and that is if you can hit the ground running with your 'new idea' group.

 

Nor is it for the faint hearted or the 'I'm gonna take my ball and go home' types...You have to be committed to the TROOP's long term well being...not just your sons 'term' in scouting! And after stiring things up, be willing to stay and help put things back together...for as long as it takes.

 

I am gonna say something here, in defense of the "Twits" running CNYScouter's troop...we do not know what has gone on in the past...Maybe they tried "Boy Led" and failed once...or many times...Maybe the boys just didn't get it...and the leaders just didn't have the knack to put it together...Maybe no disgruntled parents were willing to keep trying or take over and set things straight ...and the program just slid into a comfortable rut where these 'Scouter' types felt they we at least giving boys some scouting experience and that was better than nothing...Maybe...

and as I have said before; can anyone here say having a less than perfect scout troop die is better than have no scouting program at all?

 

That said, two things must be done if the current 'program side' (SM, ASM's) of the troop is unwilling to change. First, as in all good fights, infiltration must take place and it must be massively done. YOU NEED MANY LIKE MINDED SCOUTERS.

 

Every suggestion and task undertaken must be manifestly apparent to all, including the 'old guard', as being done for the good of the boys.

 

CNYScouter will need many, many Assistant Scout Masters trained and on board with the system...He will also need a large number of trained and active Committee Members, this will be democracy in action.

 

Then the CO and COR must be educated, slowly, perhaps, but surely with the benefits of 'Boy Led scouting'.

ONE OR TWO TRAINED LEADERS WILL NOT GET THE JOB DONE...in this instance. This is usually accomplished by enlisting new scout parents as they come into the troop (or before)...and is supplimented with ouder scout dads who can be brought around to seeing the benefits of Boy Led Troops.

 

Only by stacking the deck can you hope to succeed. On the program side, start with the younger patrols and the NSP's. Educate them and guide them into the patrol method...start (and here is part of the commitment part) doing as many or more patrol activities than you have troop activities...get the boys planing on small scale (hikes and patrol camping, etc.)so they are ready for larger 'fish'...If you can make this work, you may find more of the 'old guard' wanting to give it a try.

 

If you can 'convert' the CO the first part of the action is nearly over, and you can stack both the committee and the ASM with 'believers'

 

When you are 'ready' A meeting of the troop adult leaders, Program and Committee needs to be called (this may be two or three years down the road depending on the numbers you can get on your side)Have the DE and DC on board and on deck. A new program is offered up and the success of the NSP's is used as evidence it works...the meeting will hurt some feeling and may even see some resignations but if you have done the ground work the program will change and the Newer scouts will be ready to go full bore.

 

CNYScouter, are you willing to spend 9 or 10 years with the troop? If not, find your son a new troop. This can work, I took part in a reeducation effort...it hurt a lot of feelings and even drove some families away. But 8 years later we are successful and have doubled in size. We routinely have 75% participation in most weekend activities and take nearly 90% to Summer camp or High Adventure camps each year.

 

Thanks to a large group of 'newer, active scout parents', who saw a lot of good in the original program but wanted the boys to 'do it right', we were able to start seeing real results in two and a half years. Four years out we knew we were winning...but most of the 'old guard' was gone...it was no longer fun or they had 'burned out'. 9/10 years later we still have to be on-guard...Most adults have a strong distaste for the lack of 'perfection' and the appearance of Chaos that sometimes seems evident in Boy Led Activities...and we constantly have to educate well meaning parents who want to help by doing it all for the scouts...

 

good luck, CNYScouter, are you up to the challenge?

 

been there, done that and bought the tee shirt (still paying ten years later). Anarchist

[OneHour]

"Four years out we knew we were winning...but most of the 'old guard' was gone...it was no longer fun or they had 'burned out'"

 

Anarchist is right. It won't be an easy winover nor will it be an easy pill to swallow for the old guards and "old boys." We are still getting the "it is no longer fun for us" line from the boys who were part of the adult run show. Some of these boys no longer show up. We care and we do ask, but if they don't want to come back ... there is nothing that we can do. It may sound mean, but these boys are bad influence on the newer crop of boys. They create "clicks." They encourage the more popular younger guys to join. They do not want to do anything at troop meeting. Their version of boys run is we do as we please and you can't say squat! These are some of the drawbacks that you will experience. Some of the parents (who were ASMs or Committee members) complained about the way that the troop has become so disorganized. They complained about no fun. They wanted to go back the way it was (eventhough activities were breaking G2SS guidelines!). We (the current scoutmasters) stayed steadfast. We will implement our changes eventhough it is slow and painful. We see ourselves as a rebirth of a new troop.

 

Again, anarchist is correct ... it will take continuous caring and nuturing to get it done. Fortunately, I'm in it for the long haul. I have 3 sons. My oldest is a Life scout. My second one is a Web 1. My youngest is 5. Another fortunate thing is that each wave of new scouts into our troop from the pack that we came out of has a great set of parents that share the same scouting view. Maybe my sublimal messages during pack meeting and pack events sinked in.

 

Now if anyone has any idea on how we could speed up the process of conversion, I would love to hear as well.

 

1Hour