Implementing "Boy-Run, Boy-Led" after years of SM Running it all FOR them...

[Joni4TA]

I couldn't have been more thrilled to see this topic in these forums today!

 

Our Troop is struggling on all ends with this dilemna now. Basically, the former SM (now an ASM) lead the Troop for several years. The man is a genius at many things. He is well organized, extremely intelligent and very giving of his time to Scouts. he is friendly, and kind, and all that good stuff. He is well trained, has Wood Badge, taken many Leadership courses, been in Scouting many years, etc.

 

However (yes there is always a "but"), within the confines of his great talents, he has produced a SM-run Troop rather than a Boy-Run Troop. At PLCs, SPLs and PLs were handed an intriquite itinerary, along with a calendar of annual events, well-planned by the SM with dotted i's and crossed t's. The guy was efficient, had all the campouts planned, where, how, why, and when... would produce packing lists for all the boys "so they wouldn't forget anything," the whole nine yards!

 

The SM also allowed, advocated and taught Merit Badge instruction (both Eagle required and non-Eagle) during almost every weekly Troop meeting. In fact, the Troop Meetings were designed specifically to promote the teaching of MBs. In addition, the SM was such a great organizer, he could easily handle the task of handling Troop instruction in the Troop's entirity, so 30-50 boys learning the same MB, at the same time, in the same meeting, every week. As a result of the Troop functioning in "totality" instead of Patrols, none of these boys know what a Patrol Method is either.

 

The "Mommies" would plan things for the boys, the SM would plan things for the boys, everyone was planning things for these boys except THE BOYS! The former SM would constantly send emails as to what the Troop was doing, far in advance. It was a "well-run", and "flawless" Troop, from an untrained, parental eye. You heard from the SM and Committee frequently... and things did go smoothly.

 

ENTER A NEW SM...........

 

The "NEW" SM is a 16-yr Veteran to Scouting Leadership, has likewise been well-trained, earned Wood Badge beads, etc., etc.

 

First thing the "New" SM does is put a STOP to the "Merit Badge Mill" that the Weekly Troop meetings had become. He says there will be NO MBs taught in the weekly meetings, as long as he is the SM. After much grumbling and dissatisfaction, it is suggested and put into effect that MBs can be taught an hour before the weekly meeting or on another day, and only one MB per month.

 

Next, the "New" SM declines to use the former SM and Committee's "pre-planned annual plan." And, he ("New" SM) insisted that the PLC was going to make the decisions!! Well needless to say, this has been wreaking havoc in the Troop. New SM's also insisted on the Patrol Method being utilized, has assigned ASMs each to be Patrol Advisors to assist in the conversion from a PL doing absolutely nothing in the Troop to actually performing his job functions.

 

Though the SPL was not being challenged prior to the change of SM command, he is now showing signs of great growth. He's finally getting to use the skills he's learned in Leadership!! He's walking, not running.. but he's getting there, and new SM is so proud.

 

Of course the "New" SM is not perfect. None of us are. He makes mistakes, he has his weaknesses, and we should expect that from him. But he is abiding by the policies of the BSA and should be both respected and commended for his efforts in trying to turn this Troop around.

 

On to the parents, Committee, Former SM -

 

They have tried (unsuccessfully) to stage a coup to get the new SM to step down. Parents are furious that all these changes are taking place and they feel the Troop is "disorganized" and no longer functioning "as it should be." (Rather, as it was) I am on the Committee and I agree with the changes the SM is trying to implement, because it's clear what the Troop was before - was NOT a Boy Scout Troop, but an extension of the Cub Scout Den Program!

 

Parents and Committee Members are blasting the SM behind his back, encouraging "mutiny" for a lack of better characterization. What's upsetting is very few of these folks who are so irate about how the SM is trying to implement the Methods Of Scouting, are even BSA Trained. Nor have they taken the time to look into the fundamentals of Scouting. They just got so used to something for so long that "looked good" (like a wolf in Sheep's clothing) and ran well. Now they are being force fed the harsh reality that their Boys have not been participating in a Boy Scout Program all this time, but instead have been herded like cattle in a mindless 3rd Year Webelos Program!

 

I believe in encouraging TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING! The SM is going to do a "Mini" JLT for the current PLC members. I can only lead the rest of the horses (Committee Members and Parents) to the "Training trough", but I can't make them drink! I send out emails, provide them with links to check out on the internet with great information on the Ideals of Scouting, Merit Badge processes, encourage them to read their son's BS Handbooks, you name it. It is working? I don't know.

 

Can you guys help out a little? Is there anything you could think of that would be helpful? I don't want the parents to hate the SM, and I've tried internally forgiving them of their ignorances of the BSA Program. The SM has suggested to the Committee Chair that he designate a Committee Meeting and I can help plan for the District Training Team to come in and get these folks trained. (I am on the District Committee as well, along with the new SM). Haven't heard back from that yet.

 

Opinions? Anyone? Suggestions?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Since you are on the District Committee, you must know a couple of troops who have a history of doing the boy run boy lead thing right. Could you and the new Scoutmaster put together a joint activity with one of the better boy run troops to demonstrate how it shoudl be done?

[Joni4TA]

OGE, that is a great idea. In fact, a Troop within a mile radius meets the same night and time our Troop does. Also, the nearby Troop hosts a special "MB day" once a week on a separate night.

 

I actually went through SM Training with one of the ASM's from this other Troop, and he gave our Troop an open invitation to join them at anytime for joint activities. Being a mere Committee Member, I can't do much more than inform the Committee and SM of these opportunities. I know the SM has passed on the information to the Boys but they are so used to being catered to by the former SM, this Troop never was big on inter-troop events or District functions. I think they are still in shock from having their "pacifier" taken away so to speak. No one has shown any interest in joining another Troop for much.

 

Perhaps the SM could use visiting another Troop's meeting as a "Training" Method though, for the PLC and ASMs!

[SemperParatus]

Boy, have I been there and done that...

 

Lessons learned -

 

1. Scoutmaster must make changes incrementally, immediate and far-reaching changes almost always cause division. He may have forced too much too soon (I can see that more clearly in hindsight).

 

2. Scoutmaster must have a strong working relationship with the CC who will support him 100%. If this is not the case, then the SM has no chance at all.

 

3. Scoutmaster and CC must present their plans to the Committee (which currently holds all the power) and gently push the changes focusing on the benefits that will accrue to their boys - greater leadership development and self-confidence.

 

4. Scoutmaster must select his own ASMs that will support him in his changes. He can keep some of the 'old guard' around but not rely on them for much - more so just so that they are close by to be watched.

 

5. Scoutmaster must model and teach leadership skills to the scouts - constant follow-up and questioning, PLC meetings, JLT course, etc etc. This will be the hardest part of all.

 

6. Power must be wrestled from the Committee. The CC must control that - he must be willing and able to say 'no the parents will not do that anymore...the scouts will." A weak CC will not work if change is to be effected.

 

7. Training, training, and more training for the adults. Make it easy so that they do not have an excuse. Maybe schedule special sessions during troop meeting time, so that the adults are away from the action and are getting what they need most.

 

8. Training, training and more training for the scouts. Troop JLT is a must and the first order of business. Consider getting the oldest boys to council JLT this summer.

 

9. Get the adult complainers doing something else...hospitatlity committee, merit badge counselors, district involvement, equipment repair, paperwork. Anything to keep them away from planning trips and meetings and complaining.

 

10. Recognize that time heals all wounds. Those that are really upset will leave...good riddance. After 2-3 years it will only be a bad, distant memory as the changeover occurs. Recruit heavily to tip the scales from the old to the new.

 

11. For the immediate time, negotiate a merit badge solution. Not during troop meeting time, but maybe counselors can come in for the hour period prior to a meeting. Forcing scouts (and parents) to go 'cold turkey' is not the best way to wean someone off a bad drug. Do it gradually.

 

12. A word from the retired SM to the parents, showing his utmost confidence in the new SM can not hurt.

 

13. Be a slave to the Patrol Method.

 

Sounds like things are spiraling out of control and are about to reach a crescendo. CC and SM should take immediate action to seek reconciliation. Parent Meeting time. The SM and CC need to present their goals in a reasoned and compassionate manner focusing on making the troop a model BSA program. They cannot come across as know-it-alls, they really need to show some humility to get the parents off their backs.

 

In the end, the really bad apples that are causing significant troubles must be told to either get in line or leave. Harsh?...yes. Necessary?...yes...for the good of the Troop and the rest of the boys.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[Joni4TA]

Semper,

 

Luckily, we have an excellently strong CC! Unfortunately he's never had Training either But, he is very intelligent, resourceful and supportive. His son is our SPL, and he has seen the changes in his own son - change for the good. The CC even commented, he's watching his son having to THINK for a change! LOL CC does support the SM, and the changes in the Troop. We are working on getting all the parents trained (I think - I keep stressing the issue, some folks are actually looking into it), I am sending links to National BSA info on the net, as well as emailing the entire Troop when there are Training courses being offered anywhere in our District.

 

Our CC has already had a Parent Meeting and basically told them, that Hey... the new SM isn't the old guy, he's not going to do what the old guy did and he's doing things HIS way, and is supported by District as well as BSA policy. How can any untrained, ill-informed Committee/Parents argue with that? I sit on that Committee too, and I have been trained. I feel a little at a bias though, this "New" SM is my spouse.

 

I did not go to the Parent's Meeting on purpose so that the folks could talk with the CC and voice their opinions without feeling intimidated. However, in the Committee Meetings, I am constatly having to remind folks what they should and should not be doing, trying to plan, scheme, take from the boys' responsibility etc. I can't back down there, I am truly the only effective Committee Member for change, aside from the CC.

 

MBs are already being slotted plenty of time to be taught on the same days, but prior to, the weekly meetings. We have quite a few Adult Leaders who double as MBCs involved in our Troop, they are more than welcome to offer MBs any other time than the Troop Meeting. The SM is no longer "THE ONLY" MBC, that's all.

 

Also, a nearby Troop does a MB Day once a week and our Troop's boys have been unilaterally invited to attend that workshop and take on MBs anytime. This has been a few months now - None have attended.

 

I have personally provided each Scout in the Troop with a listing of all the District MBCs who handle Eagle Required MBs. So far, no one has approached the SM for a Blue Card, but we'll see.

 

On top of all that, our District does a Merit Badge of The Month where they provide a counselor and offer a MB to 20 boys (first come, first serve). The boys have to call up the Scout Shop themselves and sign up. So far, only a handful have participated in that program in the last year.

 

So they aren't being cut off from Merit Badges cold turkey, but as close to it as the SM could get. His goal was to remove MBs from the weekly Troop Meeting. For that, he has succeeded. I wish these people could get over it and grasp the fact that a weekly Troop Meeting is meant for other purposes than a simple MB session, and that there is more to Boy Scouting than constantly being handed a Merit Badge worksheet.

 

Funny you mention that the SM must elect his own ASMs! He just called and "recruited" some currently registered, and strong ASMs to be assigned to a Patrol, as a Patrol Advisor this evening. The SM's plan is to do the JLT, with the ASMs in tow, so that the Patrols and Advisors/ASMs will learn together!! It's a quick fix, and hopefully will take. It's like putting scotch tape on a bicycle handle grip. It's not going to hold forever, but perhaps it will spark an interest in the ASMs, and motivate them to get further training - the New Leader Ess., BS Fast Start, Scoutmaster Specific, SOMETHING --- ANYTHING!

 

I am probably emailing these folks to death about Roundtables, misc. websites, program helps, links to nearby Troop websites and information ALL OVER, to include THIS SITE! I want them to ask around, start figuring out why the SM is effecting the changes he is, and where he is coming from. Because you're right, you can't just stand there and keep throwing BSA policy in people's faces, you end up sounding like a pompous fool with an ego problem! That's not this SM - but he is very strong in his Scouting beliefs and is also very tired of the former regime trying to undermine his implementation.

 

One of the biggest problems is convincing the parents and Committee Members that they don't need to, and plainly should NOT hang out in the weekly Meeting hall, talking and kibitzing in the rear, and basically disrupting things as they see fit. I told the SM to simply open another room in the meeting place, and shuffle them into it, period.

 

A bunch of women yacking in the back of a Scout meeting is ridiculous, but on top of that many are overprotective Mommies and feel the need to insert their parental voices across the room to effect discipline. Hey, I am a Mom and I know that would be my first instinct if I was in the same room as my son and saw him acting inappropriately. Therefore, I am one of those Committee Members who stays home while my son attends his Troop Meetings. Unless I am ASKED to be there for a specific purpose, I don't see the point in going into the meeting and adding further disruption. I have been accused of "not being involved", only "showing up for Committee Meetings", BORs, picnics, parties, etc. And I make it clear, as a Committee Member, that is what I am supposed to do, not hover over the Troop like a mother hen cackling behind all the boys and pecking at them to stay in line!

 

I offered my advice to the SM. I felt the best way to tackle the problem was to remind these Moms, Parents, Committee Members that if they were bringing their sons to a Baseball practice, Soccer practice, or band practice, where they were sitting in the bleachers or in the audience hall, walking into the practice field or on the stage as they saw fit, they would most certainly NOT be hollering across the field or room at their children. And I am quite sure if it continued EVERY practice, the coach or music teacher would ask that they kindly discontinue the behavior. Am I Wrong? And the Troop Meeting is no different!

 

A work in progress, but Ahhhhh the frustration!!!!!!!!

Please, keep the suggestions and comments, war stories, success stories, COMING! I am very appreciative!

 

YIS

[Eagledad]

>>I told the SM to simply open another room in the meeting place, and shuffle them into it, period.

[EagleInKY]

J4TA - Since you've already received some fantastic advice from three of my favorite posters, I have nothing of real value to add.

 

Just to encouage you, it can happen. But it takes time. My situation is a little different, we were starting with a new troop. But with nine green boys, straight from Cub Scouts, they knew nothing about a boy-run program. And the parents knew nothing but an adult-planned program. The first year, we essentially had an adult-ran program. The only thing was, every time I or my ASM did something that should have been a boy's job, we would say "I'm doing it now, but this will eventually be your job". Gradually, over two years, we have a program that is pretty-close to boy-run. I still have to do some manipulation from the back to get the boys to do what they are supposed to do. But that is becoming less and less.

 

Adults are the challenge. Boys will sometime break your heart or wear out your nerves, but parents are the ones that create most of the stress. Change often doesn't come easy to them. Be patient, and listen to the advice you are getting here.

 

Well there I go. I wrote quite a bit for having nothing to add.

[Proud Eagle]

Well, I know this type of thing is hard, but it can be done.

 

 

We used to have this SM that was very good. He was the type that did lots of research and planning and thinking on his own. Yet, he managed to keep it boy run. How he did this is hard to describe, but it involved things like carefully making suggestions to just the right people, or telling the right story around a campfire, so that next time the troop was planning something, one of the boys would think, "Hey, I remember hearing about this great place to do this that and the other." Next thing you know, we are at that place doing this, that, and the other. The SM was also the type of guy that made sure the committee was on the same page as him as well. He really ran the entire show, but at the same time it was boy-led, and the committee actually functioned as intended. It is hard to explain. It worked great though.

 

Then we had an SM that was a bit more hands off in some ways. He didn't want to mess with administrative stuff, and often left the committee to run its own coarse even when that wasn't necessarily the direction he needed it to go in to support the program. Some how the training of leaders broke down also. Instead of fixing it, it became increasingly SM run. He burned out and ran out of time all at once. He is a great Scouter, and will be back someday. Hopefully he fits in better with that future role.

 

Then, after the second SM left, I was acting Scoutmaster (I am an Assistant Scoutmaster) for a time. I basically had to continue what had been planned before the SM left. However, I did confront some of the committee and parents about training, correct planning process, and the election of youth leaders. It was just as well that I wasn't taking over as SM because I think we were on coarse to clash.

 

Now, we have a new SM (he had been the advancement coordinator). He doesn't really have much experience leading a troop, but he is very outdoor oriented and has been a very involved parent and Committee Member. He just needs to learn the BSA system a bit more. I think he is open to a more "by the book" approach. I have been trying to guide him in that direction and it seems to be working. It will take time, but it looks like it will work. He is also lucky in that I got the ball rolling on change and was the one that delivered the wake up call to everyone, so he can both make changes and stay on good terms with everyone.

 

This all works out very nicely for me, I get to help steer the troop in the right direction, but I don't have to take it on myself. I also get to see if this grand experiment of conversion actually works. Really, my great strength is in having put a great deal of time into learning the BSA program, reading books and manuals, and then being able to articulate the concept. However, I am not quite ready (littel experience dealing with the committee and parents, not really considered a peer by some of the adults) to take on the job of dealing with making it all work in a troop that is need of serious change. On the other hand, we had a very mature, capable adult who needs some help figuring out the BSA program. Put the two of us together, and it should work out nicely. Either that or it will lead to a disaster. One or the other.

 

Good luck to you.

 

I think you can make it work, but you will likely have some pains along the way.

[dancinfox]

Your SM might try letting one MB be taught once a month at a Troop Meeting for 20 minutes replacing the Patrol meeting. It might help wean them off. I read somewhere when training someone give them a small job to do. Communicate with them during the time they are doing the job. Follow up after the job is done and evaluate the job. Then give them a slightly larger job to do, doing the same things, communicate, follow up, evaluate what was done right, what was done wrong and how to make it better the next time. Keep this going until they are doing the job you want them to. This method doesn't set them up for failure, but success as they succeed a little at a time until they are doing the complete job. When I've had problems with parents hanging around doing for the Scouts, I talk to the PLC about having some meetings where there's no need for sitting and have the Scouts fold up the tables and chairs. The parents have to stand for the whole meeting. Done a few times they either go home or don't hang so close. Good Luck!

Dancin

[anarchist]

 

Good luck...

 

on thing you might as the SM to try with the sour apples in the troop...I saw our SM, a RGG (really good guy) do this at this years NSP shakedown campout...

Our troop has a special campout just for the NSP's in April after their crossover...This past year we gained 31 new scouts. We had nearly 30 parent sign up to go along on the campout...I was terrified...RGG had a plan. The first morning had hardly started before parents were trying to 'correct or over-rule SPL plans and instruction for new Patrols.

In jumps RGG and herds all the new parents over to a side camp sets up tables and chairs, handsout some BSA literature and starts training the new parents as a new scout patrol...electing PL's, setting duty rosters, planning meals, estimating shopping costs, planning what to pack etc.

 

after lunch he starts training them as a PLC, doing the annual troop plan...over a weekend he retrained about 50 % of the folks there, 'cowed' 25% of them and had the other 25 % muttering how he "would not listen to a better way of doing things and just because BSA said so, didn't mean it was right...."

It was masterful and impressive...your SM might want to try it!

anarchist

[dan]

My sons troop is going through somewhat of the same thing, right now, the SM has been doing it for 8 months now. He is trying to make some changes, but is not making any head way. In fact it has gone more away from boy lead.

Some posters here say to take it slow, do not do any big changes. It seems to me that a quick change, would help the troop in the long run. Instead of trying to keep everyone happy. Get all the changes done and get the troop hiking on down the trail. Instead of making small steps that may take forever to get on down the trail.

For the posters here that say to make small changes a little a time, is this to keep the adults happy or what?

[Greeneagle5]

Congrats. Joni, It sounds like your Troop's program is making some solid strides towards youth challenge and leadership development !

Remember, the small corrective steps forward are always less frustrating (but can and will be very painful to some)than keeping quiet when you know changes need to be made to the program.

 

We're still slowly climbing up that trail, with the summit still out of sight...........

I'm pushing (and shoving w/ many e-mails)for the new CC to take some basic training and trying to promote some training for all the T. committee. Our SM(of 20+ years) runs the 3, 4 and 5 year Webelos Program with total support from the COR and many parents . In fact, the SM selects/ appoints the CC who simply acts as the Troop Secretary for the current program. The SM chairs all monthly planning meetings with very little input from the SPL/PLC. In fact, the SM doesn't attempt to attend the PLC's monthly meetings , period. Unfortunately, as long as the CO strongly supports the SM's program, there are few remedies for quick improvement, except to preach (and push) good training !! Recruiting has suffered in the last few years, which I attribute to the program being in a rut (few 'fresh' ideas from Scouts being heard). The Troop attends the same Summer Camp, same date, same campsite EVERY season...........

BORING to Scouts after a few times..........

G5

 

 

[Chippewa29]

Joni-

 

Trust me, I feel your pain. Some of the experienced posters on here can confirm that a couple of years ago, I was going through the same problems. Our former SM was a "do it my way or the highway" kind of guy and pretty much ran our troop into the ground. I took over about four years ago with six Scouts and those kids never made decisions for themselves. Obviously, we got very little help from the few parents we had (they didn't feel they were wanted). The former SM, his wife, our CC (his sister-in-law), and I pretty much were the adults in the troop (I am a troop alum from years back).

 

I had seen him chase off numerous people over the years. Even after he begged me to take over for him, he kept wanting to make the decisions. Yes, there was a lot of backstabbing when he'd show up about once a month. This is how I dealt with it.

 

I told the Scouts first thing that they were going to make decisions since it was their program. They liked the idea, but it took them a while before they realized that they could make decisions and I would back them up, even if it was different than what the adults wanted (totally the opposite of the previous SM). Within a year, I had the Scouts totally on my side.

 

Also, I did the recruiting for the troop and recruited people that were interested in following my vision of the troop. Naturally, as we got more people who believed in a boy led troop, I gained more support. I built my support team to reinforce the troop and sustain it in case the former SM withdrew his support (he still went on a couple of campouts a year).

 

By the end of 2003, after putting up with his "junk" for almost three years, I sent a letter to him and our other ASMs (none of whom had specific responsibilities, but rather were just wearing the patch). In it, I stated that I either needed the ASM to take on some regular duties (1 of the 5 did at the time) or resign as ASM and become a committee member. One of the other ASM's took on some regular responsibilities. Two replied that they didn't really have time to work with the Scouts and resigned, but asked if they could come back if they had more time (I told them we would gladly welcome them back). The former SM replied with a nasty email he sent to the whole troop and said he deserved to have a position for everything he had done over the years. Saying that I had some nerve for pushing people out and taking the troop down the wrong path (we had fifteen Scouts by this time and were in much better shape overall), he resigned in protest. We haven't heard from him since. No one misses him and the doubting that used to occur behind my back has pretty much disappeared (many of the parents who used to side with him have seen how much happier their kids are with the way things are now).

 

For your troop, my best suggestion is to take things slowly, get the support of the kids, and gradually replaced (but not push out) leaders who don't want to follow that "crazy" type of Boy Scout program.

 

John Maxwell is a great leadership author who has written about making change in a group. His best book is probably "The 17 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership". I'd strongly suggest reading that book to get a better idea of reshaping a group.

 

If you have any questions, feel free to send me a private message.

[MollieDuke]

What about having a movie night with the adults and show "Follow Me Boys" with Fred MacMurray. It's a great entertainment film which shows each boy in a cooperative environment. Several of our friends have watched it since I've gotten it and we've asked them to "find their son" in the film. It's been interesting. Several people have watched it and said "wow, I wish our troop was like that." If nothing else, it would be a nice night out and a change. :-)

MollieD

[dan]

I have never seen the movie Follow Me Boys. But it has been discussed on here before, everyone said it was a feel good movie, but it was not really a boy run troop within the movie.

To build on your thoughts, how about a movie night and show the The Fast Start video.