Do you count Librarian & Historian as RESPONSIBILITY?

[SMT99]

I know, I know... I cannot add or detract from the requirements as shown in the book. And YES, I know that given 100% of my attention, I could make sure that the Librarian & Historian positions actually DO SOMETHING remotely resembling 'leadership' or 'responsibility'. But let's be perfectly honest. The VAST majority of Scouts who get the titles do little to nothing with them. It's like a 'free-bee' for the position clause for advancement. Heck, even the chaplain's aid says a prayer a couple of times a month, and I'm supposed to pass him for same requirement that a patrol leader or ASPL had to really struggle with. It just doesn't make sense to me. I've heard of other troops not allowing positions like 'Librarian', 'Historian', "Chaplain's Aid' etc.. count towards their advancement. Is this plausible? Or AT LEAST could I determine that those positions are not needed within our troop, and drop them from the election process? I want these boys to experience leadership! And if they go from one easy job to another up the ranks, when will they learn it??

 

[Bob White]

If you understand that you cannot alter the advancement requirements, and you understand that it is the adult leadership's responsibiliy to make these positions worthwhile and develop junior leaders, then what exactly is your question?

[SMT99]

Because 'Bob', those are paper fantasies at worst! Unrealistic at best. I've read many of your views, and I'd respectfully appreciate someone else's response.

[9muckraker7]

Welcome to the campfire.

 

I couldn't agree more with your point of view, having experienced the same thing with my troop. The librarian and historian (as well as several others: quartermaster, chaplain's aid, bugler) often carry a very little defined position of responsibility; these positions are hardly "leadership" positions...they seem to have nothing to do with the patrol method and leading other scouts.

 

This raises an obvious question: can these positions carry greater LEADERSHIP responsibilities? Often times, even the SPL and ASPL must be reminded of how it is their responsibility to make things work better for the troop; that's why we have adult leadership to guide them. Often times the patrol leaders must be "retrained" in how to lead their patrol. Only after months of "practice" [training being an ongoing process] do they really come to know what they're doing! HOWEVER, no matter how much training one has gone through or how long one's tenure is in the troop, only he who is completely willing to spend time applying himself (his resources, his time, his experience, his desire to serve) to the troop could truly be a LEADER.

 

Because there is no type of training or resource for troop librarians or historians, they must learn and define what they could and should do to better the troop. Again, that's where the adult leaders (or more importantly the SPL) come in: to offer suggestions as to what the librarian/historian can do. Most pertinently [to this thread], how can he demonstrate leadership in applying himself to the responsibilities of his leadership position? How can he get the troop involved in what he does? The answer to these questions varies from troop to troop, as all troops are unique in their own way. Nonetheless, I'll offer a suggestion or two as to what they, as leaders of the troop, COULD do to improve the troop...

 

---The chaplain's aid should work on promoting and organizing the religious emblem program of the BSA. He should work with the interested members of his troop and help cooridinate/run the religious program of the troop. He should perpetrate both the first point of the scout oath and the last point of the scout law (duty to God; a scout is reverent) at every troop event, sharing prayers and encouraging other scouts to become religiously active. He should lead mealtime grace on troop outings.

 

---If it hasn't already been done, the librarian of the troop should work on organizing the troop literature: perhaps involving the scouts to collect/donate any literature they no longer need for advancement (namely, merit badge pamphlets), and constructing a "box" [for lack of better words] in which to store, organize, and transport all the troop literature to every troop event when applicable. Maybe the troop is lacking in UPDATED scout literature; the librarian could LEAD in organizing and running a fundraiser for the troop to buy updated literature.

 

Surely, the patrol leaders and SPL and his assistant do have a lot more responsibility than the other positions, but that's why they have more of a say in what the troop does and how it functions (they have the privilege of being the PLC). The patrol method is the parameter of the troop program, and it is only right that those who are most directly involved in making the patrol method work are also those most involved in working with the scouts.

 

Coclusively, I'd like to repeat myself in saying that "no matter how much training one has gone through or how long one's tenure is in the troop, only he who is completely willing to spend time applying himself (his resources, his time, his experience, his desire to serve) to the troop could truly be a LEADER."

[Bob White]

Are organizational skills any less teachable than leadership skills?

 

A scout who organizes, promotes, discovers, obtains, recommends, tracks posession of, troop print resources for 6-months has not learned, practiced, and applied, usable skills?

 

A scout who attends, records, organizes, displays, stores, and catalogs troop actvities for 6-months has not learned, practiced, and applied, usable skills?

 

Is the problem the responsibility or the approach taken by adult leaders toward that responsibility.

 

Not all positions of responsibility involve the skills of leadership. But not everyone in life manages people, some manage things, and those skills are no less real, and no less important.

 

Planning, evaluating, problem solving, communication, goal setting, are all involved in any patrol or troop position of responsibility...aren't they?

 

If all you are teaching a Chaplains aide to do is to "say a prayer a couple times a month" then that scout has been abandoned by the adult leadership of the troop.

 

What other activities could that scout be taught to do as part of that office that would make it a productive and meaningful position?

 

 

 

 

[MidwestMom]

These are positions of responsibility, which is not the same necessarily the same thing as positions of leadership. Our troop is in the process of developing clear job descriptions that set out the responsibilities these Scouts are to perform. For example:

 

The librarian maintains and organizes information needed for the troop's future outings, advancement, etc. If the troop has a library of books, merit badge pamphlets, magazines, tapes, videos, etc., the librarian's job should be to keep the library organized and available to the troop. He should have a record of what literature the troop has, who has it, and when it should be returned. If it is not returned, he should follow up and ask that it be returned. He should also check each year to see whether new merit badge pamphlets need to be purchased. If there are not funds for purchasing the pamphlets, as stated above, he could lead a project for raising those funds. He could also keep a file of information about activities (past, current year, future), places to camp, trails to hike, maps, courts of honor, etc. He also needs to take the initiative to recommend replacement or repair of library materials and the acquisition of new materials.

 

The historian maintains, preserves, and organizes information about the troop's past. The historian should take photos of each troop outing and write up a few paragraphs about where the troop went, which members participated, who did what, what went right, what went wrong, etc. These photos and writeups should go into a troop scrapbook that could be shown to visitors, new Scouts, etc. as well as used for planning activities in the future. Photos of Courts of Honor could be preserved as well. He could also record when the troop earns an award, take proper care of the award, keep copies of news clippings featuring the troop or troop members in the scrap book etc. He could keep a record of troop "alumni" and where they are now and what they are doing. These former leaders and Scouts could be contacted to fill in gaps in the history of the troop if necessary. When the troop scrapbook is close to full, he should request the purchase of a new one. He should also maintain an archive of written information produced by the troop including old troop log books, newsletters, etc.

 

In this electronic age, part of the work done by the librarian and historian could be done using databases, photo-editing software, etc. They could work with the Scribe in keeping the Troop web site current. Both the librarian and the historian should be prepared to deliver information to the PLC to use in planning activities, courts of honor, etc.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I visited a new Troop as a UC on their first campout. (Note: Some believe the UC is not really a position of responsibility either.) I offered to take pictures of some of the events during the day while I was there. By the way, I had initially not been invited. I just happened to find out that the SM did not have two-deep leadership during the day, so I offered to come out and visit. I didn't mention anything to the SM about the 2DL issue because he hadn't thought about it and he appeared to have his hands full for the time being.

 

The Scouts began the day by goofing around, so I mentioned to the SM that we could offer some competitions. The boys were interested so we began by having a flag pole set-up competition. Each patrol had to lash two poles together, tie clove hitches to the top of the pole, drive stakes into the ground and tie off each of the three lead ropes to the stakes. They had to learn to tie the knots properly so there was a competition about that also. Then they had to raise their Patrol flags, which had to made and then end it with a Patrol yell that had to be thought up. After this they had to learn how to cook their first meal as a patrol and then clean-up. More instruction was forthcoming.

 

After a prayer and lunch we gathered firewood for the evening campfire and so on for the rest of the afternoon. Each event was photographed and the Scouts had a good time. The ASM came out late that afternoon and I left. Later that week, I sent them photographs of their first campout.

 

This experience should be put into perspective with a campout several years before. I personally knew a green SM out with a new group of Scouts with nobody to take pictures or offer advice or to help with a few ideas. It was pretty ragged and it should have documented for the guys to look at later and laugh at or to take note on how far they had all come together in just a few short years. Some of those Scouts had been with that particular leader since Cub Scouts. That SM needed to have a few pictures of that first event to remember names and faces and deeds. Later some of those same Scouts had become accomplished leaders and had stepped up to take over the reins of the Troop when that SM left. They needed to have their memory of their history to help them teach a new group by remembering how far they had come themselves.

 

So, I would like to offer the suggestion that some positions could be of little use if the person did not apply action to the assigned duties and some imagination. Some positions are like growing trees that must be thought of as future investments. Some positions should be thought of as plants that bloom and then fade with the morning light. It really is a group of people with varying duties for fairly short amounts of time with adult support that helps to raise young men into leaders. May we not underestimate the value of each position. I know I don't.

FB

[FScouter]

MidwestMom points out that these are "positions of responsibility", which may or may not be the same as a position of leadership. A boy might experience more of what we traditionally call "leadership" by serving as a patrol leader rather than a historian or librarian. But is that better?

 

Historian or librarian should have as much responsibility as any other position. The requirement for advancement to Star, Life, and even Eagle do not require a position of "leadership". Responsibility is what is required, not leadership. And do we not consider a responsible person to be demonstrating leadership by being responsible to his position?

 

If a boy is coasting through his tenure as historian or librarian or whatever, is it because the position is weak, or is it because the Scoutmaster doesn't require much? The job descriptions found in the Scoutmaster's Junior Leader Training Kit are comprehensive. Any boy that follows those job descriptions is doing a lot. MidwestMom, you might take a look at them and maybe save your committee from re-inventing the wheel.

 

[Eamonn]

Hi and welcome to the forums.

Without wishing to come off as some kind of "Smarty Pants" I have tried to imagine that we were having this conversation in real time -Whatever that might mean?

I wonder if the conversation might go something like:

Eamonn: Hi 99 how is it going?

SMT99: Fine, but I'm having a problem with some of the POR's listed in the book, mainly the Librarian and Historian.

Eamonn: What sort of problem?

SMT99:The VAST majority of Scouts who get the titles do little to nothing with them. It's like a 'free-bee' for the position clause for advancement. Heck, even the chaplain's aid says a prayer a couple of times a month, and I'm supposed to pass him for same requirement that a patrol leader or ASPL had to really struggle with. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Eamonn: Do you think that the problem is that the Scouts are just not doing enough or that they just don't know what to do?

SMT99: I know that given 100% of my attention, I could make sure that the Librarian & Historian positions actually DO SOMETHING.

Eamonn: So what would you say that your goal is in all this?

SMT99: I want these boys to experience leadership! And if they go from one easy job to another up the ranks, when will they learn it?

Eamonn: I wonder if we should change that question a bit and ask who will they learn it from? Who do they work with?

SMT99: That would be me.

Eamonn: What tools do you need that would make what you are doing with the Scouts better for everyone?

SMT99: I have all the books, the Scoutmaster and the Scouthand books, I have done all the training's and I'm a regular at the monthly Roundtable meetings.

Eamonn: What would happen if you asked the PLC to work with you and you spent a little time writing a job description for these positions?

SMT99: I don't know, but what the heck it's worth a try.

Eamonn: Of course being that we are working with one Scout in each of these positions we have to remember that cookie cutter job descriptions may not always work. We could have a Lad who has a learning disability and has a hard time with reading, so we have to remain flexible. We want the Scout to do his best and his best may not always live up to our expectations of what or how the job could be done. It's a very tough call. How do you think we can do what's best for the Scout?

SMT99: The Scout?

Eamonn: Yes the Scout, not the Patrol or the Troop but the little Lad who has agreed to take this job on.

SMT99: I would need to meet with him.

Eamonn: Great!! Remember all the things that were covered in Wood Badge? The Vision, Mission, and Goals?

SMT99: Sure.

Eamonn: If you met with the Scout and went over the job description, that the PLC,with your support had came up with and asked him "What do you think needs to be done to make our Library or Troop records better? This could be his vision. Something very simple. Maybe as simple as: Our Troop Library is going to be really good." You could then ask why? Of course there is going to be a fair amount of looking at his shoes, raised eyebrows and he may even think that you have gone off your rocker!! But with a little help from you the two of you will come to some sort of agreement. Maybe along the lines of: The troop will keep track of all the books and video tapes that we have. Add a couple of words and it could become "The mission of the Troop Librarian is to keep track of all the books, tapes and AV equipment that belong to troop 99."

Eamonn: So what comes next?

SMT99: That's easy the goals.

Eamonn: This is the part that will help the Scout learn Leadership, so far he has come up with his vision of what it should be like. He has come up with his mission about what is going to be done. The goals are the tasks that he is going to work on to meet his mission. This is where you need to really be there for the Scout. Working with him you can help him come up with a set of goals that are : Specific. Measurable. Attainable. Relevant. Time-Based.

SMT99: Do these goals have to be for the benefit of the Troop?

Eamonn: No. A Scout could have as a goal that he will meet with the local Librarian and find out how the books are cataloged there. Or he might visit a local Historian and see how they arrange their archives or a local photographer and get tips on how to use the troops new digital camera.

SMT99: This is all very well and good, but I just don't have the time to do all this.

Eamonn: Maybe you need to see if as ASM or a Troop Committee member could help. You will need to see the Scout is coming along with his goals. He might need to change them if something isn't working out.

SMT99: Most of our Lads are air heads they will forget the goals as soon as we finish talking.

Eamonn: Yes!! That's why it's very important that they write them down.

SMT99: So what happens next?

Eamonn: Hopefully you or who you have asked to work with the Lad have been supporting him and checking that he is working on his goals, so when the SM conference comes along. He will dig out his list of goals and the two of you can discuss how things went, what if anything does he think he has learned from doing the job? What parts of the Scout Oath and Law did he use to get the job done? What changes would he recommend that the PLC make to the job description? How did he like working with the person that you asked to work with him? What goals would he change if he was to start all over again? Of course the big question is; "Do you think that you really did your best?"

SMT99: Thanks, I will have to spend a little time seeing if this can work.

Eamonn: Your Welcome.

 

Leadership is a very big word. Some people see it as the act of leading others. Some see it as getting a job done. As leaders we need to have an idea or a dream that we working toward, we need to identify our mission. The BSA has both a Vision and a Mission Statement.

The chartered organization that we work with have looked at our program, our vision and our mission, they like who we are, what we stand for and where we are going. One of these Organizations has selected you as the person who will deliver this program to the youth that they want to reach out to.

Along with the BSA statements, there is SMT99. He shares in the statements, his values are in line with both the BSA and the CO. Troop 99, has a lot of good people who have an idea of where the Troop is heading. SMT99,has brought his skills and his talents to the table. He also has personal goals. Of course we don't know what they are. We do know that he is doing his best for the Lads in Troop 99. From the posting I see that he wants some sort of a standard. The standard is there, it just needs to be found.

I am in total agreement that just giving a Lad a patch and a title without a goal is teaching him all the wrong lessons. I don't agree that we need to rewrite the requirements.

At the end of the day it comes down to accountability. If we don't hold the Scout accountable for doing something. He will do nothing. If we don't work with him and offer him the opportunity to do his best. Can we blame him, when he doesn't do his best?

I think that a Lad who can with the help and support of others, come up with a vision, a mission and set goals which he really tries to meet is learning a lot about leadership and responsibility.

I also believe that a Lad who does nothing needs to learn that life doesn't reward people who do nothing. If we allow patch wearing and title holding to be the standard, we are letting everyone down. Making it work is not easy, but isn't that the message we are trying to get across to the youth that we serve? We can do nothing and in return will not see any good return and will be doing a lot of harm. Even the POR's that seem "Daffy" give us the opportunity to put some of methods of Scouting to work: The Ideals,Advancement,Personal Growth,Adult Association,Leadership Development. It seems like a good deal to me.

Eamonn.

 

[dan]

Doesn't the Librarian and Historian report to the ASPL?

Shouldn't the SPL and SM be guiding the ASPL and the ASPL guiding the Librarian and Historian?

 

Shouldn't the Chaplin Aid be working with the Chaplin?

[SMT99]

Thanks for all the replies. Lots to do to make this all work.

I appreicate all the constructive input! (...no 'Bob' that didn't include yours.)

[Greg Nelson]

Where does it say that your troop HAS to have a Librarian or Historian, or that it has to let anyone who wants to fill the position?

 

If, as it stands, you think the position is a joke, either revise the expectations, or elminate the position (and with it, the potential for abuse).

 

 

[Bob White]

I hope you at least noticed that all the responses, including mine, places the responsibility fore making these positions meaningful onto the shoulders of the adult leader. Why you chose to single mine out to dislike is your problem again.

 

The fact remains that no troop position of responsibility will be meaningful unless you make it so.

[EagleInKY]

I agree that these positions can be used by lazy boys to get POR without doing much work. I try my best as SM to make sure they do fulfill some of the responsibilities of the job. For example, The Historian needs to keep the scrapbook up to date and bring it to COHs. If he doesn't he's not doing the most basic part of his job.

 

I've found, however, that I'm quite busy working with the SPL and the new scouts and I seldom have the chance to work directly with these guys. Therefore, it seems like the best way to make it work is how it described in the manuals. The ASPL should take responsibility for making sure the guys in these positions are doing their job. I've found that if you have a very driven and organized ASPL, chances are, they will get a lot of their work done. It certainly is not on the same level as the work the SPL has to do, but that's not the point.

[MidwestMom]

FScouter,

We have studied the job descriptions in the Scoutmaster's JLT Kit and we aren't trying to reinvent the wheel, only make suggestions about how the general descriptions in the JLT Kit can be applied. As you know, all Scouts in POR are expected to set good examples, wear the uniform correctly, and live by the Scout Oath & Law. And the JLT Kit has very good overall job descriptions for each POR. But the job description have gaps that each troop or Scout holding the POR can decide how to fill.

 

From the JLT Kit: The Historian gathers pictures and facts about past activities of the troop and keeps them in scrapbooks, wall displays or information files, takes care of troop trophies and keepsakes, and keeps information about troop alumni. The Librarian establishes and maintains a troop library, including keeping records on literature owned by the troop, adding new or replacement items needed, having literature available for borrowing at troop meetings, keeping a system for checking literature in and out, and following up on late returns.

 

What these descriptions leave open are things such as

 

Which troop activities should be photographed?

Who provides the camera?

What facts should be gathered about past activities?

Why do we keep a history of the troop anyway?

Who is the audience for the troop history?

How does one care for a trophy or a keepsake?

 

And,

What information should be kept in the troop library, or, in other words, what information does the troop need that could be kept in the troop library.

When should an item in the library be replaced?

How should the information be organized?

 

etc.