Brothers in same patrol

[CA_Scouter]

We have a situation with brothers assigned to the same patrol, where one is 13, and the other just bridged over from Webelos this year.

 

Momma insists that the boys must be in the same patrol, but we, as scoutmasters, feel that the younger one depends too much on the older one for guidance and assistance. We feel the younger one would best be served by integrating more with other scouts, so that he can learn some independance and leadership skills.

 

Would appreciate comments on this situation. Thanks much.

 

 

[Bob White]

If you use the New Scout Patrol I would put him there. If you don't, and you were going to toss him into a mixed patrol anyway, then I would put him with his brother, if that is what the brothers want.

 

Parents do not run troops.

 

BW

[SR540Beaver]

I thought patrols were supposed to be made up of buddies? I'm a twin (the good looking and smart one) and my brother and I never got to have a class together in school until or junior year of high school because it was discouraged by the school system. We did everything else together.....even worked for the same place in high school. I never liked them keeping us apart.....although it didn't scar us for life or anything. Part of being in a patrol is helping each other, working as a team and having older boys as role models. What is the problem here? You'd want other young boys to be in the patrol to look up to this older brother as a role model and friend, why not let brothers? Now, if they fight like cats and dogs, that is a different story. Keep in mind that if you separate them, the younger brother may view scouting as not fun and want to drop out. It is hard enough to keep some boys in scouting even with a good program. Why give them a reason to leave?

[Eamonn]

I never had much luck with Brothers in the same Patrol.

As Bob says the new Scout patrol is great. However if you don't use it. I would ask both the boys where the little fellow should go?

I had an older Brother in the troop when I first joined he wanted nothing to do with me. So there wasn't a problem.

I also agree that Parents do not run the troop.

Eamonn.

[silver-shark]

Great insight here.

 

I've recently been struggling with the same situation between my 13 (almost 14 year old) and my (just turned) 12 year old.

 

Our troop has several brother pairs that we have intentionally separated in the past, but my 12 year old REALLY wants to be inb the same patrol as my 13 year old.

 

I asked the older one what he thought about it and he says that he doesn't have a problem with it.

 

They do fight quite a bit amongst themselves, but not anymore than other brothers do.

 

I'd looking forward to hearing about more experiences in this thread.

[Bob White]

SR504Beaver

 

When you were a scout would you say that you and youbrother were similar in age, ability and interests? If so then you belong in the same patrol.

 

These two boys are almost three years apart. They are not similar in age or abilitiy. At this point the only interest thay share that we know of is that they are both in scouting.

 

If the troop has a new scout patrol it would fit the younger boys developmental stage better at this time.

 

BW

[Hunt]

Parents don't run the Troop, but they usually do bring the boys to patrol meetings. If you split up the brothers against the mother's wishes, you may need to arrange for alternate transportation for one of them if the patrols meet at the same time in different locations.

[Bob White]

OK so we adapt. Now the flip side if both are in the same patrol and the family can't make the meeting you now lose two from that patrol rather than one scout from each of two. Right? So no matter which you choose having brothers in the troo has its up and downs.

[SR540Beaver]

BW,

 

Note that I asked if they fought like cats and dogs or not. I don't want two boys from different families in the same patrol if they argue and fight with each other all the time. Same goes for brothers. It depends on the relationship of the boys involved. I had an older brother who wouldn't let me or my twin in his room. He wouldn't give us a ride anywhere in his car. His little brothers cramped his style. Now that we are adults, we are best of friends. I did grow up with a lot of kids who had a different relationship with their older siblings. The looked up to them and admired them and the older sibling accepted their role. They were good friends even with several years difference in age. I agree with putting new scouts in a new boy patrol.....but that requires that you have enough boys to do it. We have some "super" troops in our council that take up three camp sites when they go to summer camp. They would have little trouble forming several new boy patrols. But the vast majority of units I know rarely get enough boys each year to make up a new patrol. Some do, some don't. In the cases where you don't, you integrate them into existing patrols. What happens when you start losing 15 and 16 year old boys and end up with only 2 or 3? Do you make them a patrol of their own to keep them seperated from the 11, 12 and 13 year olds? The reality is that many unit's patrols are made up of a wide range of ages. If you have two brothers who are several years apart who get along and want to be in the same patrol, I see no reason not to let them.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

What about having the younger scout in the new scout patrol and the older brother be troop guide?

[Gags]

I think we need to re-read the post again.

 

The "problem" isn't whether they fight but the fact that the younger one depends on the older one too much.

 

There's so many variables on this situation that would affect any suggestion we can offer:

 

Does the younger brother (YB)have friends outside the home? Not everybody goes to school w/ their next door neighbors, if he happens to have any his age in the area.

 

Does the older brother (OB) enjoy the role his YB puts him in?

 

Is the mother (Mom):-) even aware of these roles?

 

It's a fine line between pushing the boy towards independence and self-reliance and pushing the boy away from an otherwise great program.

 

I see the same thing happening w/ my nephews (8 & 6). The youngest is quick to say "I can't do it, can Matthew do it for me?" Matt is quick to do it b/c he doesn't think Jason can do it himself (often happens while playing video games - go figure). It can be frustrating to watch when you realize how much bigger the learning curve is going to be for the younger one in the long run if the behavior continues.

 

My 2 cents on child psychology.

 

--Gags

[SR540Beaver]

Gags,

 

Point taken. However, don't we expect new boys to depend on the older boys to teach them the ropes? Not do for them, but teach them. The Patrol Leader and SM need to keep a watchful eye with any younger/older boy combination to make sure that the older boys are teaching and the younger boys are doing. Will there be a possibility that the older brother will do for the younger brother and that the younger boy will expect it? Possibly. The PL and SM need to make sure that doesn't happen. The fact that they are in a patrol together does not automatically mean this problem will occur. The question is whether this SM is being subjective or objective. It sounds like he is trying to head off what he thinks could be a problem without knowing it will be a problem. Like I said, my school system "assumed" that it would be a problem if my brother and I were in the same class. Granted, we were older (in high school) before we were in a class together, but it wasn't a problem. Outside of school, we had the same friends, interests and were always together. We still were our own unique individual.

[KoreaScouter]

We have several sets of brothers in the Troop. One set wanted to be together; they are. One other doesn't; they aren't. The others don't care one way or the other, so their sibling status isn't a factor when SPL makes patrol assignments.

 

Isn't it natural for a just-crossed-over Scout to lean on his older brother for help, advice, and top-cover? The same older brother who showed him how to tie his shoes, ride a bike, and appreciate comic books? His family had him for 10 1/2 years before we did; you can't erase that with a patrol assignment. In my experience, the young "clingy" Scouts outgrow that in their first year, and get more independent. My advice is to let it happen naturally.

 

I appreciate parents' input regarding their boys; they know them better than I do. I find that they, in turn, appreciate my input on program delivery; I know it better than they do.

 

One hand washes the other, and both hands wash the face...

 

KS

[anarchist]

Interesting thread....I'm for separation...

, and this is mostly to SR540Beaver, by separating brothers, in school you were given the opportunity (gift?)to do 'it' as an individual without a brother to be held-up as an example (either good or bad) or as a competitor. You were placed in a situation that 'forced' you to grow at least for a little while each day on your own without whatever influence your brother would have had upon you.

Even when you two came back together (later in school) you had by then, grown and experienced situations that, left to your own devise, would have been..."different" with brother along for the "trip".

 

Having two scouts 14 months 'apart' in age and of vastly different talents and skills and personalities, I would not want either in the same partol...its tough enough having them in the PLC together(SM's doing not mine). They can be themselves and learn with and from others in their own age group and abilities... and little bear does not learn to lean on his older brother to get him out of trouble...he leans on his patrol!

 

final note:

our troop also have new 'twin' scouts, complete with their own behavioral and physical set of challenges. We separated them into different New Scout Patrols against "mom's" wishes (but we did compromised on tenting together)...guess when we have the most problems with these boys????

 

anarchist

[SR540Beaver]

anarchist,

 

What KS said!

 

Also a note about having problems with your twins at night. I've stated several times that it depends on the brothers in question. If they fight like cats and dogs or are otherwise disruptive, then they probably should be split up. As I also said, that should go for two non-siblings in a patrol. If you have two boys who can't get along and are constantly sniping at each other.....why would you force them to be in a patrol together? Split them up and EVERYONE will be much happier. To automatically assume that two brothers equals trouble is wrong. The brothers wishes should be respected as much as two buddies who want to be in the same patrol. To do otherwise could be the difference between losing or keeping a couple of potentially great scouts.