patrol size

[acco40]

I'm a believer in following the patrol method. We use NSP, regular (and will shortly - Venture) patrols. For various reasons, patrol sizes do get out of whack but I've been on outings where two members of a patrol participate and function very well as a patrol.

 

Some background about our troop, the NSP patrols will soon have a year under their belt. Our current situation is 5 in regular patrol 1, 6 in regular patrol 2 (one has sparse attendance and two from this patrol are currently acting as SPL and ASPL so they are NOT a member of reg. patrol 2 now which had 8 members), 5 in NSP patrol 1 (soon to be six with a new recruit), 9 in NSP patrol 2 (with one with sparse attendance).

 

My question, I plan on allowing the former NSP Scouts to either "advance" together and stay together as patrol or to integrate into existing patrols as they would like. In other words, I'd keep the patrol but if an individual Scout or two would like to join another existing regular patrol (and they would have him) that would be fine (pick your own peer goup I say).

 

I would like all patrols to have more than 5 members because many times the SPL chooses an ASPL from his (former) patrol. That would bring a patrol of 5 down to three. It could function but ...

 

Comments?

[EagleInKY]

Back to Mich's original question. I belive 7 or 8 is the ideal number. 6 works, but it gets harder to get things done on campouts, especially if one or two are missing. More than 8, and a young PL has difficulty leading the group.

 

Our troop started last year with 9 boys. We divided into two patrols of 4 and 5 each. It worked fairly well, all things considered. We had to do some things as a combined troop, due to the numbers. For example, our district's Klondike derby was designed for 8 boys on a sled. Therefore, we combined and competed as a troop.

[Eamonn]

There seems to be a lot of ideas floating around in this thread. While I can walk and chew gum at the same time, I am easily confused.

I do not think the amount of time that you have been in Scouting or held a position is any reflection on how good a leader you are. There are a lot of old time, long time leaders that I know, that have been running something that they call a Scout Program, but while some of what they offer looks like a BSA program, that is as far as it goes.

These are most often the people who argue that the Methods of Scouting are just guide lines.

I am also of the opinion that Title or position should not be used as an indication of knowledge. There are a lot of District and Council Commissioners who hold that position because they are good at managing a Commissioner Staff, they might have not been great unit leaders. The guy who will take over as District Chairman, from me is not a program type. He will I hope give leadership to the District Committee.

While I have wore the Scoutmaster hat for a number of years, it took me a number of years to grow into and understand the true meaning of the Methods of Scouting. It could be that I'm a slow learner? I have in previous postings explained that I misused the PLC. I had these PL's and the SPL carrying out my ideas and my agenda. Even though the troop looked good from the outside (Membership, Advancement, activities, uniform.) I wasn't really following the program.

Still with all those failings I never ever in 11 years had a Patrol turn up for a camp-out with only one Patrol member. As it never happened I am unable to say what I would have done. My big problem is that I can't ever see it happening.

During my time as a Scoutmaster in the UK, boys left the pack when they reached 101/2 or 11 years old. There was no Den crossing over. This of course did mean that we had mixed age Patrols. It worked because we made it work. The early training in Scout skills was very much in the hands of the Patrol Leader. Some Patrol Leaders were far better at teaching skills then others. One complaint that I heard a lot was that the older boys didn't want to keep doing stuff with the younger Scouts. We also seemed to have Scouts that came from a lot of different schools which made planning activities very difficult. Life was a little easier because the Scouting program only went to age 16. After that the Scouts moved on to the Venture Unit.

I really like the idea of the New Scout Patrol, with the Boys taking turns being the Patrol Leader and them all working with a experienced adult. If these Lads are friends to start with, this makes the transition from the pack to the troop a lot easier. I am also very big on having the Scouting Skills that are learned and taught on the way to First Class, being very well done. These skills are used so much all through the program. I hate and have seen Scouts hang back because they are embarrassed that they can't do a simple scouting skill.

The Venturing Patrol, will keep the older Lads in Scouting if we the adults listen to them and act on what they want to do. Again this really does give an experienced ASM something worth while to sink his or her teeth into. As it seems that selling the idea of the troop camp-out to the same old, same old is harder to sell to them and these are the Lads who may have part time jobs or obligations for school (More so than our younger Scouts.) They are the group that are more lightly to not show up for the activity. Also if there are only a few of them they are better qualified to manage the work load of camping without a full complement of other Patrol members.

I am all for Patrols that are comprised of Lads who are about the same age and share similar interests.

I like to think that I'm an easy going flexible sort of fellow. While the goal should be that we do everything we can to keep the little Lad that joins the troop and becomes a member of the Raven Patrol, a Raven till the day he turns 18 and joins the Venture Crew. Sad to say things come up: Scouts leave and it might be that there are not enough Ravens left to continue being a viable patrol. There may be a need to have a reshuffle. When and if this happens we need to ensure that the ex-Ravens go to a Patrol that they want to join and that wants them. If this means that there will be one Patrol with six and one Patrol with eight. So be it. The Patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.

I will stand by my ideal Patrol Size of six as it really does offer more Scouts the opportunity to be a leader, which also helps with offering him the opportunity for personal development.

When I was young Scoutmaster, I thought that the Patrol was there for my benefit. It was a nice size for administration and seemed like a good fit for me. As I grew wiser and got a few more white hairs I seen that this team was not there for my benefit. In fact I was there for their benefit. I think the most important position in Scouting is the unit Leader and when I visit a troop, the best Scoutmasters are those who are allowing the SPL to run the show. The SPL leading the Patrol Leaders and they in turn are leading the Patrols.I don't know too many Scouts who have the skills to lead a group of nine or ten other Scouts.

We don't seem to be allowing or pushing the idea of Patrol Camp-outs. I wish we would do more to really allow the Patrol to camp as a Patrol. Again I'm a little unsure if a big group is such a good idea. Anything over 8 would seem too large.

As for the argument that we break up Patrols for Jamborees and Provisional Troops. I disagree. When a Lad joins a Jamboree Troop he is joining a new troop. The patrols are just as important. The Patrol Leaders and the SPL are still elected. The PLC, still meets. Each Patrol is the Scouts Patrol. He is a member, he has ownership. They as a Patrol have goals. We the adults are aware that while they will only be a member of that Troop for a short while, that we have to allow them to go through the stages of team development. We hope that by the time the event comes along or the camp ends that they have become an effective team. I know Scouts who attended the 2001 National Jamboree that will still say that the Patrol they were in was the best or greatest. This differs greatly from sticking a Lad in the Patrol for a weekend. By doing this you are hurting the team development of the Patrol that you have stuck him in.

The Patrol as a method is something that most other youth organizations do not offer. It is, to my way of thinking the thing that sets us apart from other youth organizations. The idea that a small group elects their own leader, who represents them at a meeting where they decide what the group is going to do, is such a great idea, that I don't think we want to mess with.

If a Patrol isn't working the Scoutmaster has the job of training the Patrol Leader and supporting him so that the Patrol does work. Along the way the Patrol Leader learns about leadership. Great Leaders know the people that they are leading. They use this knowledge to get the job done or the goal reached the idea of sticking an outsider into a Patrol is a very bad one.

We do have to start thinking that the Patrol is the most important unit in a troop.

The Scoutmaster really only has one job and that is training the Patrol Leaders.

As ever we come back to:

Train them, Trust them, Let them Lead.

(But let them lead the Patrol, not any one that they don't really know.)

Eamonn.

[Backpacker]

I did not say that the scouting methods were optional, I said they were optimum. But as all scout leaders know there are times where in your particular unit where you may need some alteration. Case in point this thread, I agree with the other posters here who have mixed age and ranks due to troop size. And you know what Bob they work great, the older guys work and teach the younger ones, wait a minute isn't that one the methods of scouting? In any event Bob I usually agree with your advice, just sometimes you wave the regs like they are some sort holy writings free of error. Oh by the way check your scouting history, the first troops were formed in 1912 at the beginning of the BSA, along with lone scouts. Lone scouts were only in areas without an active troop, usually in remote areas of the country.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Bob White]

While I agree that troops began in 1912, there were Lone Scouts in 1910, two years prior to the formation of troops.

 

Supporting the methods has nothing to do with the regulations.

 

The methods are the program elements of scouting that are designed to be applied by the volunteer leaders at various program levels. The regulations are the rules of Scouting to be followed by everyone. They have no relationship.

 

Most regulations exist to protect the safety of the scouts and the image of the BSA why would every volunteer not want to do either of those?

 

The Methods are how we do what we do. How could any volunteer lead a scouting program and not know and use them?

 

For as frustrated as you are by me supporting them, imagine the frustration that I and other leaders have when confronted with those who do not support them.

 

There is a chaos of volunteers on this board who each sy "here is how I do it, no here is how I do it. Each doing a different method often unrelated to scouting.

 

Then you have a handfull of us saying not 'this is how I do it', but "this is the scouting method, let's all play the same game." I am bewildered at those who take offense to that.

 

Not surprisingly the ones who cry the loudest seem to be the ones furthest from delivering the program.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Backpacker,

I do see that you addressed your last posting to Bob White. However as you posted it on the forum and didn't send it as a private message I hope you don't mind me adding a few comments.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "By the Book" means.

I see the things that are printed in the G2SS not as guidelines but as policy that must be followed to the letter. In this forum we have at times discussed at great length what the words mean. I kinda think we all know what the guide is saying or the point that it is try to make.

When we attend training's there is a lot of material presented.Most of it is the material that comes from the BSA,at times some presenters feel the need to add other material that they feel is important or participants ask questions that are not covered by the syllabus. This is all well and good as long as the stuff that they add is correct.

We have a program that is offered to other organizations. Most accept the program "As is" Some adapt it to suit their needs.

While we hear a lot about "Uniform Police" and other groups that enforce Scouting. There are no such groups. We offer the program to groups that share the same values that the BSA has. These groups select the people who will deliver the program. We offer all sorts of things that will help in the delivery of the program.

The methods of Scouting are what makes our program different to most if not all other youth groups. I see some of these methods as a must. The ideals of Scouting is something that if we don't agree with we are in the wrong organization. Some methods should be easy. Hopefully if we are offering a Scouting program Outdoors is a no brainier.

Adult association ought not pose a big problem. Advancement might take a little bit of thought and planning. Some of the methods might take a little more time and should be marked as "Goals". Uniform could be a goal if you have just become a leader of a troop that didn't wear full uniforms. The Patrol could be marked as a goal depending on the situation. Reading these forums there seems to be a lot of people who want to hand over the running of the troop to the Scouts. Which sounds wonderful. Bad thing is that they seem to forget about training the Patrol Leaders and supporting the Patrol Leaders. I think that it took me a long time to really use the Patrol Method, because I was doing it wrong for such a long time. Of course while we were doing it the "Eamonn Way" things were a lot easier and ran a lot smoother. Once I really handed over the running of the troop to the Patrol Leaders things were very rough. At first the boys were very unsure what to do. I still felt the need to jump in and take over - Even though I tried to convince everyone including myself that I was only advising. All the time I was doing it wrong the troop seemed to be doing well. The bad thing was that I wasn't allowing the Scouts all the opportunities that a true Scouting program should. Even once I "Got it" There was a time period that passed until the Scouts in the troop really understood what was going on and how the system really worked. Of course there were times when things didn't really work out. We had Patrol Leaders who were not up to par. Still I like to think that I worked harder with these Lads than some of the others.

It is possible to run a youth group with the same aims as we have and do a first class job of doing so - But without the methods it really isn't Scouting.

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Double Eagle]

Anyone dealt with a lone scout. It still a term used today and allows a scout in extreme circumstances to persue scouting aims. Anyone seen any or have any experience.

[Backpacker]

Bob,

 

You did not read my post,I always follow the methods of scouting in my troop, I sometimes will try something new if another troop has had success with it. Second the BSA did not come to this country until 1912, so any lone scouts prior to that were not part of the BSA, just BP wannabes. I just feel that you are too quick to ostracize other SMs who are trying something new. I will tell you this from my experience using both methods mixed patrols do work and work quite well. Even BP himself used mixed patrols in the beginning. BP being the creator of Scouting I think would know more than some overpaid professionals at National.

[Eagledad]

>>There is a chaos of volunteers on this board who each sy "here is how I do it, no here is how I do it. Each doing a different method often unrelated to scouting.

[Backpacker]

Barry,

 

 

Your post was eloquently presented and thoughtful. I sometimes come off angry when I talk to Bob, even though I respect his knowledge I guess he pushes my buttons and I shouldn't let that happen. I agree we should all be open to new ideas, thats what we are here for. So again thanks to you Barry.

[Bob White]

Barry,

 

I invite you to bring to light any evidence of any of the things you accuse me of.

 

I have never demanded anyone go "by the Book" I have asked, urged, guided, pleaded and begged people to learn and follow the BSA program. Is that really to much to ask of anyone who wants to be called a scout leader...that we expect them to lead according to the scouting program?

 

 

Where did I say that if you don't follow the book you aren't scouting? What I said was if you do not use the Methods of scouting then you arent scouting. That's a fact Barry, it is the Methods that make Scouting, Scouting. If you dress as a baseball player but do not follow the elements of the game it's not baseball. Baseball has a specific program structure that a player can expect to find every time he plays the game. So does scouting, and if you are not following that structure then you have changed the game and it is no longer scouting.

 

If that causes anyone anxiety then good. If you aren't making the effort to follow the Scouting programs it should bother you. It bothers the boys when they don't get the program promised them, so it ought to bother the leaders as well.

 

Professionals are necessary to the BSA and to the community. But their role is not program quality per se. Program quality is the responsibility of volunteers. For a professional to only be concerned about Quality Unit is unfortunate and it ignores the responsibility given to him or her by the wreath of service they wear on their sleeve. A Trainer and in Commissioner service my concern is that every scout recieves the BEST possible Scouting program available, not just the minimum program elements...the BEST. If you have a problem with that so be it, I have none.

 

To think that I could intimidate you or any one else is nonsense. What can I do to you? I have no authority in your council or unit even if I knew who or where you were. I am type face on a screen and nothing more. Consider what I offer, read the resources I share, take the training I recommend or do not.

 

But if you have the freedom to tell me to stop pushing the actual program then I have the freedom to say when you are pushing something that is not the actual program.

 

Have I ever given advise or information that harmed a unit or a program? Have I ever told anyone to violate a policy? Have I ever not defended a youth member who needed help because of an adult who was not following the program? Have I ever not assisted any adult who asked me for help to improve their service to the youth?

 

Will you get some people to agree with you? I am sure you will, no one is liked by everyone. But I get 50 to 75 private meassages each month from posters on this board asking for my help but who do not want to post because of the amount of trash directed at the program or me personally.

 

So to all interested in adding to Barry's post I say "take your best shot" I will continue to post in support of the BSA's program not my own because I do not have a program. I will continue to use the policies, procedures and methods of the BSA in accordance with the promise I made when I signed my application as a volunteer. I will continue to enjoy sharing the promise of scouting with other liked minded volunteers. And I will continue to hope that those who do not know or understand the program they said they would lead, will make the opportunity to take the available training, and follow the available resources, or step aside and make room for those who are willing.

 

Yours in Scouting

Bob White

[Backpacker]

Bob,

 

Do you actually think that none of us in here have not had the same training or read the same resources as you? We are perfectly aware of the methods of scouting and follow them, even though you don't seem to get that. In training courses I have taken everything is not always presented as black or white, there are times where you need to experiment, as a wise trainer at Philmont once told me, and do what works with your troop. All I think Barry is trying to say to you is try to be open to new ideas that fit into the scouting program.

[evmori]

Bob,

Boy did you miss the point of Barry's post!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

Ed, you hit that nail head on.

 

Barry, a difficult post, yes. Thoughtful and well-written. I've got a few comments myself regarding patrol size, but have not posted specifically because I'm not in the mood this week to get shot down in public. Open discussion is good and we need that. Our purposes with the forum aren't furthered if people shy away from commenting or asking questions.

[Bob White]

Are these rhetorical questions or do you want a reply?