patrol size

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

>>Grouping by mixed ages and ranks is not part of the method either. The BSA program works if you follow the program. Patrols are a group of scouts of similar age, abilities, and interests.

[Double Eagle]

How well did the patrol of one do on the buddy system, tenting, and interpatrol activity. Hmmm?

[Double Eagle]

Did the patrol of one eat as a patrol?, duty roster, patrol equipment carry, skit or run on? I'm just trying to figure out how one scout could participate in an outing without other patrol support and still have fun, or a sense of belonging.

[Bob White]

You don't think a person can cook for himself. A person can't tell a joke, tell a story, lead a song, do a run on by himself?

 

He can't be unconscious in a tent with another scout?

 

More importantly where is the rest of the patrol? What lead to this situation. I guarantee it wasn't from following the program.

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Double Eagle]

And you thought I was crazy to combine patrols. See, here's my point. It may not be the "Norman Rockwell" painting of a patrol method, but I bet that scout would have had a better time combining the eagle and beaver patrols for an event, like teaching woodbadge and being a critter. He could have been a "Beagle", at least the Eagle part would have saved him.

[Eagledad]

Hello All

You assume too much BW for knowing nothing about the situation. You pulled the trigger to fast. But I understand why you said it, I have lots of assumptions of your program as well from your writings. Im sure they are just as silly. Which is why I keep them to myself.

 

As for the other questions, just because a scout acts as a patrol of one doesnt mean he doesnt work with or hang out with the other scouts. Was it good patrol method? No but that doesnt mean the scout, or other Scouts didnt learn a lot about patrol method from the experience. Sometimes you have to let ideas go to their end to grow from the results. The situation gave an opportunity for a positive impact and growth. The adults were well aware of the situation and monitored it to guide it to a positive conclusion.

 

Barry

 

[Bob White]

I don't recall anyone saying you were crazy. What we said was the the Scouting program says that is not how you apply the Patrol Method. Wood Badge taught you the same thing.

 

What would give the scout more fun is if the rest of the patrol participated. That is the real problem that the SM should be addressing, not misusing a method to hide an unrelated problem.

 

The Methods of Scouting are not there to be tossed aside to camoflage problems. They are to be applied to avoid problems

[Double Eagle]

BW, how does a "lone scout" use the patrol method. I understand its purpose. I've checked and can't find how a lone scout uses it. Its a good practice/method but not inclusive to all situations. Failure can be a better teacher than success. It seems like it with Eagledad's example.

[Bob White]

Scouting started as Lone Scouts in the US. What part don't you understand?

 

If you go to a family reunion and no one else from your household goes, do you become a member of another family or do you just do your best to represent the others in your household by your actions?

 

Are you unable to function by yourself? If so then you should have stayed home likr the others. But if you went with the plan to be adopted by another family well, it just doesn't work like that.

 

The patrol method is designed to form a team, a family, and maintain it.

 

If a patrol for whatever reason drops below 7, I would begin a recruiting incentive for the patrol to motivate them to recruit new members.

 

Why would anyone allow a patrol to get down to one person?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Double Eagle]

Bob, look back at your first posting here. 6-8 ok and now this last one about 7 needing scouts. Also, the last part of your first posting about 2 scouts is ok? As for lone scouting, look on pg437 in the BS handbook. Even without the patrol method, a scout can still be prepared. It works for the right situation.

[Bob White]

"Even without the patrol method, a scout can still be prepared. It works for the right situation."

 

You are confusing the terms. Even a scout without a patrol can "be prepared". The "patrol method" is what you do as a leader. It is a program element that you follow and provide to the scout as a tool to achieve the aims of Scouting.

 

When a patrol shows signs of diminishing membership the idea is not to re-organize the patrol but to recruit more members into it.

You start early as you see signs of trouble.

The time to adjust the course of the ship is before you hit the iceberg not after.

 

What I said was that if only two patrol members go on the campout they can still operate as a patrol, not that a Patrol of only two is a good situation.

 

EagleDad -

You said "Aged based patrols are a relatively new idea in the BSA and from my experience,"

 

If by recent you mean in only the last 20-years then you are correct.

 

You said, "Reason is that aged based patrols tend to take away the role models that the younger scouts learn from."

 

Thats a shame, you should try using Troop Guides, Instructors and Junior Assistant Scoutmasters as a way to share older scouts abilities with the other scouts. It ios opart of the Leadership Method one of the others in the 8 methods of Boy Scouting.

 

You said "Boys between the age 10 and 14 learn most everything by what the see, not what they hear (80% or more). "

 

Actually that is incorrect. While they do learn more of what they see then of what they hear the number is nowhere that high. The most effective way that boys that age learn is by what they say and do.

10% of what they read

20% of what they hear

30% of what they see

50% of what they see and hear

70% of what they say

90% of what they say and do.

 

BW

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Hunt]

How do you deal with patrol size and grouping in small troops? My son's troop has 18-20 scouts, enough for two functioning patrols. Last year they got one new scout, this year four (if they all stay). The other boys are spread through the ages. In this situation, what's better, mixed-age, or one older, one younger?

[Bob White]

Rather than redo what is in place, based on the BSA program I would put this years scouts in a new scout patrol and begin the process from there. As next years group comes in make them a new scout patrol and so on. After a short ime you will be back on track. Next years group will be new. Theis yaears group will be Regular, the others depending on their skills can be regular or Venture scouts, and your all set.

 

The goal is to have a patrol of new scouts enter each year as a patrol of older boys age-out.

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

Well Hmmm. OK I miss stated. I should have said that boys between the age of 10 and 14 learn 80% or more of their behavior from who the watch. I work with psychologist and here is what they teach me. Between the ages 10 through 15, whoops I said 14. But between the ages of 10 to 15, we (we being all of us) learn 70% to 100%of our behavior from whom we watch. Yes, I know I said 80 to 90, but that is because Im told 80% is average. That is why how we behave has a direct bearing on how our youth will act in their future, even if it is to rebel against us. They are influenced more by whom they respect, but that is not always good because they could respect the class clown or a punk rocker. Do they still say punk?

 

Want to have a little fun, next time you are at summer camp, pick a couple of troops and watch the adults compared to the scouts. I think you might be surprised by what you see. In fact, watch your own troop next campout. Look for the similarities. Its kind of fun.

 

Not sure of your numbers, maybe that is how we learn in a class room type setting. Anyways, the say and do part you mentioned comes down the road though, 15 years or older. Which again is important because that is when we (we as in all of us) watch others less and start doing more on our own. The body change directs it (puberty), we start to look forward independently and less at our friends. I also observed this in scouting with leadership. I found that scouts didnt look at leadership as an act to lead or direct others in their early teens. They led mostly because it was thrust on them or they got some reward like advancement from it. But once they reach about 15, give or take a year, they shift gears and looked at leadership as a vehicle to project themselves in society, the troop in our case, either to test their abilities in the world, or to make change to the world. The troop being the world. This is why I love the BSA program. Its one of the few programs where a young adult has the opportunity to test their dreams and ideas, if we adults let them.

 

Now for the troop guides, JASMs and Instructors suggestion. They are great for the program, they certainly are. But they are not enough to equal the growth scouts get from mixed age patrols. I have yet to see scouts in an aged based troop with maturity of scouts in a mixed age patrol Troop. Not that there isnt one out there, but So I stand by the comment.

 

If a boy learns more by watching others, he needs to see others with higher skills than himself. In a mixed age patrol, the younger scouts are constantly surrounded by older experienced scouts who dont think twice about how they cook, what they cook or even when they cook. If the younger scouts dont have those role models, then they will have to get it from the teachings of Troop Guides, JASMs, Instructors, and usually adults. But remember, scouts learn by watching more than by listening to instruction, and those other guys dont live in the patrol, so the exposure is limited compared to mixed age patrols. Even in the best of troops, a scout in a age base patrol will not get half the exposure of skills and behavior that a scout in the mixed age patrol.

 

So why did the BSA change to aged base patrols. Mostly to raise the number of Webelos crossing over into Troops, and lower the number of scouts leaving the troop in their first year. Those to areas accounted then, and still account now for the highest losses of scouts.

 

Personally I think that BSA has been trying to fix problems caused by those changes ever since.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Barry

 

[Bob White]

You turned "learned" into "mimic behavior" two totally different things. If your figures are right that they behave according to what they see..how does that make you feel when they see scout leaders breaking the rules?

 

Perhaps you missed the thread we did on this very topic after some leaders expressed how they didn't follow the BSA patrol program or the First Class emphasis program. So we had a number of poster write in with the size of the troop, their irst year retention percentages and whether or not they used the New Scout Patrol and First Class Emphasis plan.

 

The numbers were overwhelming. Units that used The New Scout Patrol and First Class emphasis had more members and lost far fewer new scouts in the first year than the units that didn't follow the program.

 

Not surprising, as a Commissioner I saw those same results all the time.

 

The struggle the BSA has is getting all the units to use the program.

 

I am not the only one on this board that follows and supports the BSA program as it is designed. Folks like OGE and Eamonn and others do as well.

So I don't know why the some insist on making this about the way I do things. All I do is follow the program.

 

It's not like I have a monoploy on it. Anyone is welcome to do it and there are plenty of volunteers like me willing to help them along. What I don't understand are the ones who want to be Scout leaders but they just don't want to lead according to Scouting.