Troop Leadership -- appoint or elect?

[Woodsmith]

I am also in Bob White's camp on this. The boys of our Troop elect the SPL from a list of "qualified" (and willing) candidates. Currently, the PLs are selected by our SM and overzealous CC. I hope to change this deviation from the official Scout way once I take over the reins in a few months (as SM).

 

One way to avoid electing an inappropriate or ineffective SPL is to be VERY clear to the boys -- BEFORE the elections -- exactly what are the responsibilities and expectations of the SPL. This is important for those doing the voting as well as the candidates themselves. It has been my experience, that sometimes boys that the adults would have pegged as true "leadership" material have turned out to be anything but -- and some boys that have "goofball" written all over them are exposed as true leaders when responsibility is foisted upon them. Training, support and encouragement make a lot of diffence in the quality of an SPL.

Let the boys choose -- and give the "undesirable" choice a chance to prove himself!

[patcjohn]

Thanks to all of you who responded. In particular, my head was nodding enthusiastically while reading the comments made by Bob White & acco40--just seemed right to me. We still haven't decided what to do yet, as there are other things within the troop that need attention, too, so we don't want to wage war on every issue. But, having advice from others sure helps to clafify your thinking.

[Sirjimmyg]

I once read a quote from Baden Powell, it was something along the lines of 'The Patrol Method isn't just one way of running a scout troop, it is the only way.' If the boys elect a bad leader, they will realize it, and not re-elect that scout. In my troop, we had a decent SPL who ran the troop for many terms. When he became too old, another one was elected because he was the only one the youngest scouts knew who ran. He was an awful leader; within fifteen minutes two-thirds of the troop wanted him to resign (no exaggeration). The situation was calmed down by his ASPL (me). Although I agreed he was an awful leader, he was elected, and there was a lesson to be learned. The SPL stopped showing up for awhile, and when he did come he left his responsibilities to me. When the next election came I was elected with a vast majority. Although our troop suffered a little slump, we have revived and ended up better than before. No one has ever died due to an incompetent SPL, elections are a essential lesson in leadership.

[drakmund]

When it comes to troop leaders, there are some positions that should be appointed or interviewed for the job but the appointing and interviewing should be done by the youth leadership not adults.

 

In an ideal unit the SPL is elected and then he chooses his ASPL(s). The Patrols then elect their Patrol Leaders and the PLs choose thier assistants. As for the other positions like Quartermaster, Scribe, Librarian, etc. The SPL and ASPL should appoint or interview scout candidates that want the positions. This means that those positions are being filled by scouts the SPL and ASPL have confidence in. No were in the election process does an adult determine what jobs a scout should have or who should fill a paticular position.

[pmickle1027]

Ive worked with both methods and think the election works really well as long as the PLC comes up with a criteria for the election. This years criteria included a minimum rank(1st class), a minimum number of campouts attended, and a minimum attendance record at scout meetings for spl. Patrol leaders criteria was only a little looser.

[FScouter]

What would happen if there were no criteria?

[Kudu]

The quotes attributed to Baden-Powell are incorrect. B-P knew a few things about Scouting, and he believed that Troop leadership is best appointed by the Scoutmaster.

 

The assertion that in the BSA, the Senior Patrol Leader has always been elected by a Troop election is also incorrect. William Hillcourt also knew a few things about Scouting, and in his system, "The senior patrol leader is elected by the patrol leaders' council. His appointment is authorized by the troop committee on the Scoutmaster's recommendation" [scoutmaster's Handbook 1968, page 51]. Hillcourt also recommended that when starting a new Troop, that Scoutmaster train only "The 'Chosen Few'" of the "keenest, most 'regular,' most respected boys" of the "sponsoring institution or the neighborhood."

 

It is impossible for most Americans to imagine that B-P's Patrol System is based on appointed leadership because we live in a country where big government limits our choice in Scouting to a single monopoly religious corporation.

 

The moral certainty that elections are the only way to teach citizenship ("the quality of an individual's response to membership in a community") is a result of our growing up without freedom of choice.

 

In the real world, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. All of the above methods of selecting Troop leadership have their advantages, and perceived disadvantages.

 

Bear in mind that "Scouting is a game NOT a science". There is no scientific evidence that the BSA's current "Patrol Methhod" produces better citizens than the Scouting associations in countries that use Baden-Powell's "Patrol System."

 

Kudu

[FScouter]

The practices from the olden days are interesting from a historical perspective. What relevance the old ways have on the operation of today's troop is questionable. Frankly I wouldn't spend a lot of time analyzing the differences between today's Handbook and the book of 30 or 40 years ago. Go with what is, not what used to be.

[bt01]

Troop Leadership?

 

If it is a youth position, then they are elected from qualified scouts.

[Kudu]

The practices from the olden days are interesting from a historical perspective. What relevance the old ways have on the operation of today's troop is questionable.

 

Has every WOSM organization discarded Baden-Powell's Patrol System?

 

In the USA, if the old ways are not relevant to the "operation of today's troop," then we should not misquote the authors of the old ways to prove that the new ways are based on the old ways :-/

 

Go with what is, not what used to be.

 

Hopefully we will soon have an alternative to the BSA for those who choose to operate today's troop on Baden-Powell's traditional Scouting practices.

 

Kudu

[anarchist]

HI all,

Came in on the back side of this after reading Eamonns spin-off thread. I have been working with our Troop now for well over 9 years and the associated Pack for over 14 years...

 

Through these forums I have learned a lot of valuable lessons. I now know (and this is NOT a knock on the forums)how to "change" fund raising projects, COs, CCs, SMs, even troops...but just how do you change a SPL?

 

It is clear that so many troops (like this great nation) have had awful experiences with elections. In the troop's case electing really disfunctional SPLs... so what is the answer?

 

I know some of us would blame the failure of a SPL on the Scout Master...some even on the troop committee,the boys who elect the SPL, or the schools, or the society at large,...heck some of us even might blame the boy (SPL).

 

In nine years I have seen the effects of electing really good SPLs, good SPLs, SPLs who are "just going through the motions", "challenged" SPLs, and two really bad SPLs.

 

Interestingly enough, one of the most disappointing SPLs was one who, if our troop did use the much maligned "SM appointed technique", would have been the hands down choice of the entire Troop Program Leadership (SM and ALL ASMs) He was by all appearances the poster boy for the perfect Boy Scout!

 

And he was just awful! I so vividly recall all of our "Super Scouters" gleefully rubbing our hands together in anticipation of an outstanding 'new' scouting year...The kids had given the Leaders (adults) a real winner to work with!...Not!

 

Does a full year under a bad SPL kill a troop, probably not. But it helps to push out scouts and leaders who are marginally discouraged to start with and it helps kill enthusiasm of folks who have worked hard to build the program.

In our experience it also appears electing a bad SPL is or can be particularly "hard" on new scout retention...(Perhaps, parents who are not locked into the program see the chaos and disfunction and assist in their sons tactical "retreat" from the disaster scene?).

 

Now my post is not a request for "how do you train/retrain" the SPL, lets take as a given that he is beyond "help", can't or won't be "retrained"...

 

What does a troop do...who fires him? For that matter who fires a non performing PL? Or does the troop just stumble along for a year? (I know shorter terms-six months would be easier to "live through" (we use year "appontments") but the actual "learning curve" means a boy who is succeeding in his position has just started to really shine when he is asked to stand for election again or stand down for others to have a chance and troop "long term" planning is impacted.

let the violence begin...(:>0)

 

anarchist

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[drakmund]

anarchist,

 

I know of several scouts troops in my area that put requirements on positions like being a certain rank or even holding a previous leadership position. In order to be an SPL in some troops you must have served as an ASPL and the same for SPL to JASM. Depending on your troop it might be something to consider so that they get their training as an ASPL before they can become an SPL and finally a JASM. Hopefully you have more then one ASPL so the scouts can elect the ASPL that is doing the best job in their minds to SPL. For my troop this wouldn't work since we barely have 2 patrols, 1 ASPL, and the SPL. I'm hoping that in the future we will grow large enough to have multiple ASPLs.

 

As for who fires them, we do a six month review for our one year positions. The SPL and ASPL review the PLs and other positions. If they are doing a good job then they stay in their position for another 6 months otherwise if someone isn't doing their job the SPL and ASPL can call for a new election for that position instead of waiting for the full year to be complete. As for the SPL/ASPL positions, they are reviewed by the committee.

[Eagledad]

>>It is impossible for most Americans to imagine that B-P's Patrol System is based on appointed leadership because we live in a country where big government limits our choice in Scouting to a single monopoly religious corporation.

 

The moral certainty that elections are the only way to teach citizenship ("the quality of an individual's response to membership in a community") is a result of our growing up without freedom of choice. >Hopefully we will soon have an alternative to the BSA for those who choose to operate today's troop on Baden-Powell's traditional Scouting practices.

[firecrafter]

Very interesting discussion. Sures gives us all a lot to consider.

 

In our Troop any Scout can run for SPL. He first expresses his interest to the SM and is usually approved to run, barring any glaring behavior problems. He then gives an election speech to his Troop, and the Scouts choose from among several candidates. We tried setting criteria for the different offices but soon found that setting arbitrary rules did not necessarily guarantee a better outcome. It sounded great in theory but did not work well in practice.

Out PLC asked to institute an evaluation of the Scouts after each term, but the Committee nixed the idea. A few parents thought it was unfair to allow Scouts to do the evaluation. I thought it was a great idea, considering we had Scouts who were virtually "no Shows" through their entire term and still received credit as if they had done the job.

I think we underestimate the Scouts. They aren't stupid. They know which of their fellow Scouts work beside them, lead by example & treat them with respect. In my experience those are the boys they choose as SPL & PLs.

firecrafter

[drakmund]

When it comes to "credit" for being in a position, my troop makes that the decision of the Scoutmaster only. Junior Leader Training is the responsibility of the Scoutmaster so when someone wants to be "signed off" for any leadership requirement in our troop they must talk to the Scoutmaster and review what they have done for their position. This doesn't stop scouts from getting into a position and doing nothing, but if they want "credit" they have to prove their leadership ability.