eagle90 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I don't have anything to add to the "Yes it's allowed" or "No it's not allowed", but I know for a fact I would have a hard time selling a patrol campout with no adult supervision to the parents of my troop, especially the 11 and 12 year olds (an I'm sure some of the older scouts as well). Unfortunately in these times parents are becoming more and more protective and it seems harder to cut the apron strings. Many of them want to know how many adults are going, which adults are going, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Fortunately Eagle90 it is nothing you have to sell. It is a patrol activity and patrols are run by boys. It's up to them to convince the parents, not us. If they can't, then there is nothing for you to do about it, other than to continue developing the skills of the scouts. The parents will say yes only when they see the ability in the scouts. By the way the program doesn't say send 11 or 12 year olds. It says that you should not approve the event unless you feel that the scouts have the skills and maturity to do it. Do not go by age, it's easy to under-estimate the ability of young scouts and over-estimate the abilities of older ones. Bob White PS, I have left a message for our Asst. Scout Executive regarding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 "I think we have to be careful how we say this" Nah, I can say it sitting, standing or even while standing on one leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I'm glad to see Bob White posting the excercise of calling your council office to see if its possible to have unsupervised patrols camp in the council camp. My guess is that if you get a support staff (hourly position) they'll dump the call on to someone else. I also have to admit that I would have shot it down out of hand if this had been given to me to answer before I read the original thread. The idea of patrols overnighting unsupervised by adults is alien to most in the BSA (sad to say.) Now, that I know better, if given the request tomorrow, I would say it's okay and even good, but would make sure the campmaster knew what's going on and that he would check on the youth at check in (perhaps silently during the night) and again in the morning. Is this so different than patrols camping alone during the JLTC course offered by the council? Not in my humble opinion. It also wouldn't surprise me if a council found it easier to make sure adequate adult supervision (as needed in troop outings) is required in all outings with youth on the property. It's not an insurance issue, neccessarily, but one of administration. DS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 PRELIMINARY REPORT Upon review of the scouting handbooks the Asst. Council Executive agrees that Ptrol camping without Adult supervision is indeed an activity supported by the BSA. He is going to consult with the camp ranger to make sure there are no administrative problems from a land use aspect. He expects to have a determination by Saturday. He thinks it is a great opportunity for the council to serve the units and wants to see us impliment the camp in this way. By the way, he said that in all his years as a professional, no patrol has ever asked to do this. See they really are on our side folks. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I'd like to think we're all on the same side. That side being, what's best for the youth we serve. DS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 " but I know for a fact I would have a hard time selling a patrol campout with no adult supervision to the parents of my troop, especially the 11 and 12 year olds (an I'm sure some of the older scouts as well)." For me, it would depend on the Scouts. We have one patrol of young Scouts that I think would do quite well on their own. On the other hand, my son's patrol might be found 20 years from now wandering the desert in Morrocco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltheart Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Interesting visit to the council office yesterday. When the question was posed, the common response seemed to be... "Ummmmm....gee, never been asked that before..." Sooo...I asked what their individual thoughts would be. Pretty much a 50-50 split. Those on the positive side based their opinion on the knowledge that the BSA has, for along time, held patrol camping as a positive learning experience and reinforcement of the values and skills presented by the program. Those on the negative side based their opinion on the lack of adult supervision. And even only about half of that group (the negative side) thought that patrol camping on private property or state property was a good idea. Sort of makes me wonder if they read the book.... Anyway, the gauntlet has been thrown down, and now as they take the matter under further consideration for more 'research', we'll wait and see where this goes. Interestingly, many of us around here had never even thought about the possibilities. But those troops I'm familiar with who have fairly close access to the council camp seem quite interested in the potential. Why we collectively never thought about the idea is beyond us. But the facilities are just what the doctor ordered for many...if the council staff and camp ranger can be loaded on the same boat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matuawarrior Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I've been following this thread for awhile. It's good to see that the question is now being asked. The Pro's are looking into it and we'll be getting answers in a couple of days if not a couple of weeks. This is a good thing for the Scout Patrols. It opens up other options for them. I can see it now. A patrol camping out at a Scout Camp. A Scout Troop camps out at an adjacent site close to the patrol. The Scouts in that Troop see that the patrol is having Fun and Learning on their own. the Scout leaders are tripping out asking the Ranger "Can they do that?" "Of course." the Ranger replies, "BSA Supports patrol activities". The Scouts in the Troop are inspired by the independence of the patrol. The Scout Leaders think, "Uhmmm, this could work". Can you even imagine that a Scout Camp in our respecive Councils are full on a weekend with patrols from different troops at each campsite. Mind boggling, Huh. And all they have to do is show the Ranger their required paperwork and approval from the Scoutmaster. Are we starting a trend here on the Forum? Maybe in a year, we can come back and see which Council camp offers patrol campouts. I now I'll be pushing for mine. All it takes is an Idea and a Question to be asked. Matua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Amen, Matua, and thank you. I have faith in the members of this forum, whether junior, member, or senior. I find this group to be open to ideas, thoughtful, respectful, and just a good bunch of guys and gals. I look forward to the questions, even the arguments and count you all as my friends. I also participate because I have felt a kind of a wall over the past 15 years between professionals and volunteers that does not need to exist. I hope that my presence helps erode that wall and builds the relationship that is so very necessary between professionals and volunteers if we are to make Scouting work for the youth we serve and the youth we want to serve. Patrol Camping -- I didn't know it was possible until I read these forums and researched it for myself. It sounds like at least a few volunteers are making their professionals -- the true professionals who do care about Scouting (which is the vast majority) and will take the time to research matters about which they are not sure -- research. If the council volunteers have made a prohibition against patrols camping without supervison, you may be stuck, but if the office says it can't be done, ask someone to show you the resource that says it can't be done. Office staff and professionals are human, just as I am. They can be wrong and let "logic" (which means anything that makes sense to them) become law when a little research will shed light. I'm glad to hear Bob White's assistant scout executive was able to research, think, and pave the way for patrols to use BSA camp. The patrol, as I've always said, is the "leadership laboratory" of the BSA. It's the alpha and omega of BSA leadership teaching. DS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 >>The patrol, as I've always said, is the "leadership laboratory" of the BSA. It's the alpha and omega of BSA leadership teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I must be getting old. I thought that I added my two cents to this thread. In a very similar thread I said (Well at least I think that I said?) That English Scout Patrols had been doing this for years and on campsites that were owned bty the Scout Assoiation. One summer out troop had a patrol camp at Gilwell Park for a week without any troop leadership. Yes the service team and the camp staff did keep an eye on them. When I spoke of this to a very near and dear friend who happens to be our council VP Program. He said that it couldn't be done. Can't wait to "Rub His nose in it". He is a very big strong lad so I will have to have m y running shoes on. Eamonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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