Other Patrol Positions

[committeechair]

I have noticed, on many troop websites, patrol positions that aren't the regular positions that have a patch to wear. For example: Grubmaster, Cheermaster, Patrol Treasurer, etc. Do such positions count towards rank advancement? And also, what about a patch to wear?

Our troop has tripled in size since last year and for the first time our troop is large enough to worry about someone not having a position. We are very excited the troop has finally grown, and are expecting more soon from Webelos!

[saltheart]

Our troop has used some of those type of positions from time to time when the Scouts opted to have them either as a troop or patrol position. BSA sells, or used to sell, blank patrol patches that could be artistically rendered to represent just about anything the Scouts wanted. They used those for positions not having a standard BSA issue patch.

 

As for the rank thing, it was and still is our understanding that only those positions outlined in BSA publications count towards rank. The odd ones not having a patch or mention in the official publications are viewed as fun to have, and an opportunity to designate a Scout to get things done in an otherwise officially undefined slot. 'Cheermaster' isn't officially defined for rank, but is invaluable when the going gets tough.

 

[CubsRgr8]

The reason to establish these other patrol positions has nothing to do with advancement. It's all about building a sense of patrol identity and spirit. If each member of a patrol has a specified role to play (grubmaster, cheermeister, etc), then each member is able to more clearly see how how he fits into the patrol, how the patrol needs and values him for his abilities. Then hopefully, each patrol member is motivated to participate in as many patrol outings as possible, not just the ones that are convenient.

[frank10]

It counts if the scoutmaster wants it to count...

 

"or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop".

 

 

[Bob White]

I want to echo what CubsRgr8 said, it was right on the money.

 

Committeechair when you wrote that "the troop is finally big enough to worry about someone not having a position" you are overlooking the fact that no matter what size the troop each person should have a position.

 

That is one of the elements of the patrol method of scouting. Irregardless of troop size, by using the patrol method every scout should have a position of responsibility.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

"Irregardless of troop size, by using the patrol method every scout should have a position of responsibility."

 

Bob,

Do you mean in a Troop of 50 Scouts there should be 50 postitions of responsibility?

 

Ed(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Bob White]

Ed asks, "Do you mean in a Troop of 50 Scouts there should be 50 postitions of responsibility?"

 

Absolutely Ed, that has been a part of the patrol method since Baden-Powell's first handbook. It's quite simple.

For example a troop of fifty could look like this;

1. SPL

2,3. (2)ASPLs

4,5. (2)JASMs

6,7. (2)Instructors

 

That leaves

41 scouts in say 6 patrols

 

8-13 (6)Patrol Leaders

14-19 (6)Assistant Patrol Leaders

20-25 (6)Patrol Quartermasters

26-31 (6)Patrol Scribes

32-37 (6)Patrol Grubmasters

 

Also within the patrols would be

38(1)Troop Musician

39(1)Troop Librarian

40,41(2)Troop Quartermasters

42(1)Troop Scribe

43(1)Troop Historian

44(1)Chaplains Aide

45(1)OA Representative

46(1)Troop Guide

 

Leaving 4 positions that could be filled according to patrol needs such as Patrol Historian, Patrol musician, Patrol librarian, etc. Any role that can be done on a troop level can be done in a patrol and vice versa.

 

So giving each scout a specific responsibility is not only easy but has been an intregal part of scouting methods, manuals and training since the beginning of the program.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

So, Bob, a Scout who just crossed over yesterday to this Troop of 49 Scouts (he is #50) will have a position of responsibility?

 

Ed

[Bob White]

Sure why not? Everbody has to start learning a job sometime, and new scouts need to know how a patrol functions. That is why the program calls for a Troop Guide for each New Scout Patrol and an Assistant Scoutmaster to hel the first year.

 

It all comes down to a trained Scoutmaster who knows the program and how to develop leadership skills. A scout with less experience or a bigger job, gets more support and training than a scout with more experience or a less vital role.

 

You will find an itroduction to leadership conference guide for each position in the Troop Leadership Conference manual. That is a great tool to start with. Then the Scoutmaster and the leadership staff continue to develop each person according to their needs and the needs of the office.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

A Boy Scout with one day experience in a position of responsibility? I don't see the need for this. He should get a chance to see how things work in a Patrol & Troop before being asked to serve in a potition of responsibility.

 

What position would this Scout have?

 

Ed

[Bob White]

Your opinion is not shared by the patrol method Ed.

 

Look at it this way. The first day a boy goes to baseball practice he plays a position. He may not do it well but he gets to see the game as a whole and how the position fits in the team. As he develops he might play several positions. Each is unique and each has it's own rersponsibilities and placement within the team. The more he plays the better he gets. But more significant is, the better the coach the better the players progress.

 

Check out the scouting handbooks for more on this topic.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[JimmyD]

If you have a troop that big and the new kids come in they don't need a responsibilty right away. Tenderfott Second Class, and First Class do not need positions and by the time these boys get through those ranks they should be ready to go for a position that can be given to them after they pass their first class BOR. Then you also have the project if needed.

[mk9750]

I am worried when someone uses the phrase like "given a position of responsibility" (not an exact quote) when it refers to rank advancement. A boy should earn the right to be considered for a position of responsiblity as it relates to advancement, not be handed it. He earns this right to be considered (voted in by his peers for some positions, selected by his PL or SPL for others) by showing evidence of the willingness to try to learn and do the job well (not necesarily that he will do it well, but there should be some evidence he will try). A Scout SHOULD NOT be "given" a POR just because he needs one for a rank advancement.

 

The Troop program should help develop a boy's desire and abilty to do a job. But if the boy doesn't convince someone that he will make the effort, the position should go to someone else. If that means he doesn't advance, that's his decision. We've two boys that are good examples. One would run through a brick wall if someone asked him to, but just doesn't have the personality to get himself elected or appointed to a POR. So we developed a leadership task for him to complete, and he worked the daylights out of it. I was proud to agree that he had completed his POR for Eagle. We've got another guy who has been Star for easliy 3 years, all because he readily admits he doesn't want to make the effort to do any of the "hard" jobs, and won't lower himself to do a less glamorous position. He's still a Star, and will be until he changes his tune.

 

As to the positions Bob speaks of, every new boy in a quality new Scout Patrol gets one of these positions. In my Troop, we don't give them a patch for it, and the jobs rotate around to everyone. It's called a duty roster. But they are positions of responsiblity, none the less, and important ones at that. And the purpose is exactly as Bob says, for each boy to begin to understand the workings of the Patrol, and his responsiblity to it. This has to be taught some time. If not right from the start, then when?

 

It is helpful to me to remember that all of Scouting is practice. Sure, it might be easy to say that petey can't cook on his first campout because he doesn't know anything, but if that's how it goes, than Petey doesn't know how to cook on his second or third campout, either. With the right help, guidance, and encouragment (mostly from a good Troop Guide), Petey CAN cook on his first campout. And Joey CAN lead songs. And Louie CAN make the fire. Why wait until some other time to allow them to practice?

 

Mark

[evmori]

OK Bob, where and in what handbook does it state each Scout in a Troop should have a position of responsibility? Not your interpretation of what it says.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

You know what Ed, for someone who wants to be spoon fed a program that he says he knows, you do not ask very nicely.

So feel free to read the handbooks yourself and ask your local training chairman when the next Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training is. I do not participate here just to reteach you a program you do not wish to learn. So I will focus on helping the leaders who want to present a quality scouting program to do so.

 

I politely deny your request.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)