Summer camp-6 scouts-how to use patrol method

[evmori]

Ok Bob. I read the 1st post & reread page 22. What's your point? If the provisional patrol has 6 Scouts (not including the PL) and 3 of those Scouts are in the PL's patrol what is the point of electing a new PL when one already exists? A good Scout should be able to follow any leader and according to the end of your statement "I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen." you also feel this should work.

 

OGE,

No offense but I would like to wait & hear Bob's reply.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, Thanks for the reprieve, but I would be posting this anyway. I agree that a scout should be a good follower and should obey whomever his patrol leader is.

 

However,

 

In the concept of a boy led troop, the boys elect their own patrol leader, I know we all agree on that.

 

Now, as we all have experienced, from time to time not enough boys from each of the troops standing patrols attend an outing and thus a make-shift "provisional patrol" is formed, perhaps with 3 from one patrol, 3 from another and 2 from again another. Now, the Scoutmaster "COULD" assign a patrol leader to the group. Maybe one of the eight is already a patrol leader or lacking that, an Asisntant Patrol Leader. And being good scouts, we (the adults) could/should expect the patrol to be fine. Actually that was my thnking from my first post on this thread. Then, after reading Bob's response, it reminded me of something. Now, I can't find my copy of the current Scoutmaster's handbook (I think its packed for camp) so I will have to make do with my 1999 copy. I cant beleive this passage is now much different:

 

The first sentence of Chapter 3 in the Scoutmaster Handbook , 1999 reads "Empowering Boys To Be Leaders is the core of scouting",

 

if you are going to have provisional patrol, why wouldnt you get the group together and tell them you will be back in 15 minutes and you want a patrol name and Patrol Leader, Asst Patrol Leader, et al? Would that not be the way best of keeping the sprit of the boy lead troop alive? Having the boys choose rather than the scoutmaster assign?

 

Interesting enough, in a highlighted section with green background and bold black text on the same page it says:

 

"One of your most important challenges as Scoutmaster is to train boy leaders to run the troop by providing direction, coaching, and support. They will make mistakes now and then and will rely upon you to guide them. But only through real hand-on experience as leaders can boys learn to lead.

 

Doesnt say a word about learning to be a follower is training to be a leader

 

PS: Dont worry Ed, I think Bob will have a reply to you as well(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Bob White]

Thanks OGE I knew you would do a good job.

 

Ed,

The original post asks...

"Is it fair to have that one patrol leader responsible for scouts not in his patrol?"

 

The Boy Scout Handbook says "Your Patrol will elect one if its members to serve as patrol leader."

 

So the answer to the question is "No" it's not fair. The boys deserve the opportunity to choose their own leader. The Boy leader deserves to be treated better by the Scoutmaster than to be forced to lead scouts who did not select him.

 

The way to sole Scout problems is through the methods of the scouting program. That's what they are there for.

 

Thanks for the assist OGE.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

I wasn't refering to the original post. I was refering to your statement

 

"I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen."

 

And what I said was

 

"If the provisional patrol has 6 Scouts (not including the PL) and 3 of those Scouts are in the PL's patrol what is the point of electing a new PL when one already exists? A good Scout should be able to follow any leader and according to the end of your statement "I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen." you also feel this should work."

 

You're answer didn't address either.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Because Ed it's not just about the leader.

 

It's a partnership, a community. We as adults have a responsibility to do what is right for both the leader and the patrol.

 

It is our responsibility to teach the elected leaders the skills of leadership. We have a responsibility to deliver the promises of the Scout program and Scout Handbook to the scouts.

 

The handbook promises the boys they will get to elect their Patrol Leader. It does not say that they will have a Patrol Leader assigned to them by the Scoutmaster.

 

I understand that not all troops work according to the handbook. Only the ones who follow the Scouting program do.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

You are assuming the PL is assigned by the SM. If you read my earlier post I stated that wasn't true. There already is an elected PL which will be leading the provisional patrol. Thanks again.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, did the members of the provsional patrol elect the patrol leader ? Thats the point.

 

You may remember this, a few years back we had a US president who wasnt elected. No, I dont mean GW, I mean Gerald Ford. Ford became president having never even participated in a general naitonal election. I know his ascendancy was quite legal. He took over the job of vice-president after the resingation of Spiro Agnew. Then when Richard Nixon resigned Ford became president. (I recount this for our junior members) It was all quite legal and constitutional, but I sure remember my father and his friends were not quite happy having a president that was not elected. Now, Ford became president because the country had to follow the rules under which it operates, there is no issue with that.

 

I cant see why a provsional patrol wouldnt follow the rules of scouting and elect its own patrol leader. It is the Scoutmasters job to train leaders,

[evmori]

OGE,

I understand that part. All I have said since the beginning of this was I don't feel it is always necessary.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok Ed, I dont want to continue to beat a dead horse that wont take a drink, even if its a diiferent color,

 

One Page 12 of the 1999 Scoutmaster Handbook, first page of chapter 3 under the bolded Text "leaders of the boy-led troop" it states

 

"Boy Scouts is a small democracy"

 

it doesnt say sometime democracy it doesnt say unless the scoutmaster knows better, it states "Boy Scouts is a small democracy"

to apppont leaders rather then have the constituents elect thjem is not the boy scout way. Obviously it can be done, but just because I can do something, doesnt mean it makes it right.

[evmori]

I'll let ya know what happens. We are going to camp next week with a provisional patrol and an existing PL in charge of the patrol.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[BSA223_CT]

Here's a twist I'd like some thoughts on; four patrols, 18 Scouts, no SPL or ASPL. I walked in on the part of the discussion where the Scoutmaster was telling the boys about a special election for Camp SPL to be held next week. He was quickly reminded by one of the PL's that the PLC had decided to rotate the position among the attending PL's.

 

Scout decision, but not all the scouts, just the PLC. Is the PLC's proxy vote enough to make this valid? I'm thinking yes, but maybe there's a flaw in there I'm not seeing.

[CubsRgr8]

The first flaw I see is conceptual. At any given time, 3/4 of the scouts at summer camp will have an SPL they had no part in choosing, which is counter to the concept of boy led troops.

 

The second flaw I see is functional. It's going to be hard for each SPL to be function effectively, because every scout will know it's only for two days. Just look at SM406's experience in an earlier post.

 

Finally, the fact that the PLC made a decision doesn't make it correct. The PLC decison to have a rotating SPL is - IMHO - contrary to how the BSA program should be implemented and therefore, incorrect, requiring guidance from the SM and/or committee.

[Bob White]

I think Cubsrgr8 makes some excellent points.

 

BW

[mk9750]

Did anyone notice that the adults have bored Ryon and he has left?

 

Is there a lesson we all, especially me, should learn from that?

 

Mark

[acco40]

For what it is worth, I agree with OGE & BW. The boys need to choose their leaders (I wish I could in my place of work). However, to add a new wrinkle take my recent summer camp experience. I was lucky that 100% of the boys in our troop participated in summer camp this year. Therefore, I made no changes in PLs, ASPL, SPL, etc. But, we also had two additional provisional campers (from another troop) that I melded into one of the patrols. One of the provisional campers was a PL in his troop. I admit, it did not occur to me to hold any type of election for new leaders. I did ask the provisional campers if it was okay to put them in the patrol I did (mostly 2nd and third year scouts - a regular "scout" patrol and not quite yet an "experienced" patrol). Comments?