Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 "A good adult Scout leader must be a good adult Scout follower 1st." If by that you mean they must follow the scouting program, then I believe we are in violent agreement on that point. A good scout leader follows the scouting program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoscout Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 That is a military attitude and not the philosophy of the patrol method which is built on participating citizenship not I order/you follow. First, the military attitude that you allude to is the war fighting model and the model set up for initial training. An extremely effective system for the purposes mentioned. However it is greatly over dramatize by Hollywood. In reality, the vast majority of military business gets done in the same way that any commercial business runs. Admirals dont run around barking orders to Captains. The Adm. says, look Capt. we need to get this done. The Adm. may ask the Capt. for suggestions, the Adm. may, based on experience, suggest a course of action, or the Adm. may just walk away. In any event its task driven, just like what we do. And quite honestly Bob, when that inevitable bad situation arises, be it a strange looking person approaching my CS, or a bear entering the campsite, or a serious medical problem on the trail I am going to want my kids (and parents) to follow instructions without delay. There are situations that require them to ask, How High? When I say Jump! If you fail to teach them that lesson then you are doing them a disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 And I dont disagree with anyhting you wrote up to the last sentence. you are not teaching them a lesson you are using a leadership style called "directing" it is one of the four leadership styles taught in the scouting program. It requires a leader to evaluate a situation and adopt the leadership style that is the most apprpropriate at the moment. It is leadership skill and requires no knowledge of leadership on behalf of the follower. This has been my point from the beginning. To lead you must learn and practice specific skills that do not get learned in a non-leadership activity. If you rely on your junior leaders to learn through osmosis, it's not gonna happen. What was the original topic of this string again? Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk9750 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Bob, I'm willing to give you that "to be a good leader, you must be a good follower" is a simplistic, cute line that may not be taught in formal training within BSA. But I think you'll agree that in order to be a good leader, you must (in most cases, not all) have empathy for those whom you lead. And a very valuable way to get empathy for anyone is to have been in their shoes. Take, for example, your example about a fisherman not needing to have been a fish. Maybe that's true, but serious fishermen study fish constantly, trying to understand them. The more they understand, the better they can fish. I'd bet that the most serious of fishermen would love the oppurtunity to "be a fish" for a day or two, to really understand what makes them tick, or more appropriately, what makes them eat fake food with a hook in it. I think you can apply this same logic to most any situation. Do you have to have to have experience in one thing in order to be good at the higher order activity associated with it? No, and plenty of examples prove that. But is there value in it? In almost every case, yes. To get back to the original question, though, I agree 100% with your position. I'd rather see the Patrol(s) stay intact, but if it really is in the best interest of the boys to merge temporarily, I'd hope they decided for themselves to elect a temporary leader. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 In the "11 Leadership Skills of Scouting" used as the foundation of Junior Leader Training, that skill is called "Understanding the Needs and Characteristics of the Group" . And just as the fisherman doesn't need to have been a fish but needs to understand the habits and behaviors of fish, a leader need never have been a good follower to be able to learn and practice this leadership skill. Empathy is a far more important leadership trait than sympathy. I can understand and appreciate how you feel without having to make myself feel as you feel. I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 "I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen." Then why the need for a provisional patrol? A good leader will be able to quickly understand the individual needs of his patrol whether the patrol elected him or not. Which goes to my original point. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ed, Because, the Patrol Method is based on participating citizenship. As members in the patrol they have the right to elect their own representatives and leadership. Certainly Ed this is not an aspect of scouting unfamiliar to you? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 No Bob, it's no unfamiliar to me. Your statement "I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen." seems to say that if a provisional patrol is put out, an existing PL would be able to lead the patrol. So why the need for a new PL? By the way, my in my last post I meant provisional PL not patrol. Sorry. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ed, Because, the Patrol Method is based on participating citizenship. As members in the patrol they have the right to elect their own representatives and leadership. There could be a few boys capable of doing the job. Scouting gives the power to select youth leadership in the hands of the boy. A provisional patrol (if you must go that way) should, by the patrol method, elect their PL. rather than have the SM assign one. Aren't we back where we started a couple pages ago? Do we have to chase our tales to understand the patrol method and boy elections? Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Bob, Thanks for not answering the question. You seem to contradict yourself. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ed I apologize if I have caused you further confusion. Please read the first sentence of page 22 of the Boy Scout Handbook. If you are still confused perhaps OGE can explain it to you. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Bob, No confusion on my part. Just wondering how you are justifying your statement. If you dont't have to be part of a group to understand the individuals in the group, why would a provisional patrol need to elect a PL and not just have an existing PL lead the patrol? The existing PL was not appointed by the SM, he was elected by his patrol. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 ::waking up:: Huh, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 OGE, Have a nice nap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ed, Humor me, read two things for me. 1. The first post in this string. 2. The first sentence of page 22 in the Boy scout Handbook. I'll be gone this weekend and I'll leave OGE as my stand-in. Please call him if the methods of scouting continue to elude you. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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