Summer camp-6 scouts-how to use patrol method

[fotoscout]

I just realized what I typed, sometimes the fingers go faster than the head. As you were typing I was editing.

 

Thanks

[OldGreyEagle]

I find myself in sorta weird position here, first I was way off base with my first post, I guess I saw red that a scout would feel it wasnt fair to be burdened with members of another patrol and I lost sight of the program.

 

Well, just reaffirming my humanity.

 

Now, why exclude anyone? Most likley a scout who has had leadership positions in the past will be elected by the scouts themselves, or not. The key is the scouts will have chosen a leader themselves so they have ownership of the process, it wasnt foisted on them. A Scout who wants to be a leader, prevented to do so by an adult could be a rather disruptive influence on the patrol. The whole point is, let them choose their own leader and the results have to be better than when a leader is given to them.

 

PS Oh Sure Fotoscout, be that way, change your post while I am composing mine, anyway, all well that ends well(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[evmori]

I dunno Bob. To be a good leader you must 1st learn to follow. If you can't follow or won't then you can't expect people to follow you. Kids will remember that you didn't follow them when they were a leader.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[fotoscout]

Sorry OGE,

 

I only change my SPL's to PL's

 

 

[Bob White]

"To be a good leader you must 1st learn to follow." As poetic as that sounds it's not supported in the leadership training of the BSA or any leadership training I have been exposed to or facilitated, and I've done a bunch of them. That is simply a clever turn of a phrase that has no sustantiation in study or application.

 

To be a good drummer you don't have to know what it's like to be beat on.

 

The leadership skills of scouting are sound ones and they do not include first learning how to follow.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Bob,

I'm not disagreeing with letting the Scouts pick their PL for a provisional patrol. All I'm saying is it isn't always a must.

 

I've taken many leadership courses in & out of Scouting. Not all but many have emphasised to be a good leader you must be a good follower 1st. In fact at my councils annual Eagle banquet two years ago, the keynote speaker included being a good follower before being a good leader in his speech.

 

I know it's not "written" in any Scouting manual, but common sense must prevail. If you have a Scout(s)who aren't willing to follow their leader, then how are they going to get anyone to follow them? Sometimes things aren't in the book. It isn't poetic. And while you say it isn't supported in the leadership training of the BSA, it isn't unsupported either.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"In fact at my councils annual Eagle banquet two years ago, the keynote speaker included being a good follower before being a good leader in his speech."

 

As I said it's a very clever phrase. That doesn't mean it has any substance whatsoever.

 

"If you have a Scout(s) who aren't willing to follow their leader, then how are they going to get anyone to follow them?"

 

By using good leadership and management skills.

 

Its is like saying in order to be a good fisherman you first have to be a good fish. Of course you don't, you just need to understand how fish behave and what bait is most effective. You don't need to have had gills first to do that.

 

Does a good doctor first have to know how to be a good patient?

Does a good athlete first have to know how to be a good spectator?

Does a good chief first have to know how to be a good waiter?

 

Leadership is about the effective use of specific skills, none of which are dependent on first knowing how to follow, but simply an understanding of basic skills such as planning, evaluating, motivating, teaching, and rewarding to name a few. Basing leadership develop on cliches is not a sound foundation.

 

This is the whole purpose for training leaders, so that they will understand and use this kind of knowledge that the BSA has developed over 90 years of working with kids. Why learn the methods of scouting and the skills of Wood Badge if we arent going to implement them.

 

The scouting methods work but only if they are used.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Bob White]

ooops! That should have been "Does a good chef have to be a good waiter first?"

BW

[fotoscout]

Ed, you are 110% correct! The military says it in a somewhat more poetic way, In order to give commands you first have to learn to take commands this is the fundamental underlying principle of any society governed by the Rule of Law. And as a subset, it is the foundation of all organizations that function with a hierarchy. Without followers there would be no leaders, and with only leaders nothing would move forward.

 

Do we teach following skills heck yeah we do!! Bob, we teach respect, respect for authority, and respect for our leaders. Now if those arent following skills I dont know what is.

 

The boy that desperately wanted to be the SPL and did not get elected. The kid thats become bitter over losing the election, what skill do you think he is learning? How about that new scout who ended up doing dishes on his first camping trip with the troop? Ill save you the typing, he is learning to follow.

 

One of the greatest experiences that our kids have is to have a real world opportunity to learn that not everyone can be in charge or be the leader. They have the opportunity to learn that teamwork really does work, but only if everyone follows the leader and does his share.

 

Sure the leaders get to practice leadership skills as learned in the program, but what do you think everyone else is doing while the leader is leading?

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

I never said being a good patrol member wasn't important. I'm saying it is irrelevant to good leadership.

 

If you would like, take Baden-Powell as one example. Would you consider him a good leader? A good teacher? All of England did. Because, he was a terrible student. He was never a good follower. But as an officer he had excellent leadership skills. Many of those skills have been passed on through the BSA program.

 

Being a good follower is not a skill, it is desired trait for those you are leading, but it in no way prepares you to lead. Only leadership skills will do that. The only thing needed to follow is to be able to obey, and that single skill will get you nowhere as a leader.

 

Take our fisherman, fishing is the skill, the fish required no skills to do what the fisherman wanted, it just reacted to a stimuli.

 

Leadership is an entirely separate set of skills and behaviors. No matter how good a follower you are, you will fail as a leader without the skills of leadership.

 

I would disagree that patrol members are followers. The role of the PL is not tell people what to do and the role of the patrol member is not to wait until the patrol leader gives him an order and then follow it.

 

The role of the PL is communicate goals with the patrol, gather their input, coordinate the resources of the patrol to make the best use of the individual skills, get the job done in a way that allows the patrol to grow as a team. If you are using a military style chain of command you are not using the patrol method. An adult is simply running the troop by using a a human telegraph to hand down their orders. That's not scouting.

 

Teaching scouts how to tell others what to do is not leadership development. What is the reason for the apparent aversion to actually using the leadership skills that the program is based on?

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[fotoscout]

Virtually all great leaders will say that their leadership style evolved from the experience of working for others. Subordinates watch their superiors, they learn from them, this is a following skill. Baden-Powell, in all likelihood learned great things by following his teachers. He was probably a much better follower than you give him credit for. He learned what worked for him and what didnt work for him. When the opportunity came up, he put he put it all to work for himself.

 

Note that I did not say good followers. Some people will never be good followers. But in the extreme the bad follows probably learn the greatest lessons. Being on the receiving end is a simple prerequisite for being on the giving end.

 

Any way you slice it patrol members are followers. They are carrying out their responsibilities within the patrol based on the PLs wishes and to the PLs (patrols) satisfaction. The method that was used to get them to accomplish their task is of course of great interest to us, but the bottom line is that the patrol members each had to follow through with their assignments.

 

[Bob White]

"Baden-Powell, in all likelihood learned great things by following his teachers."

 

For that to happen he would have had to go to class. Something B_P had a great aversion to. The result of his constant truancy was his expulsion from a number of private schools. He was mostly self-taught.

 

Any way you slice it patrol members are followers.

That is a military attitude and not the philosophy of the patrol method which is built on participating citizenship not I order/you follow.

 

That's why we teach leadership skills.

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

OK Bob. Since you seem to be such a good leader, who did you learn from? Were you a follower before you were a leader? Or is everything you learned from a book?

 

Your Baden-Powell example is the exception not the rule. I would hazard to guess that the majority of of good leaders in Scouting and else where were good followers first.

 

You simple example of the chef & fisherman & the others was inane at best. If you really feel those were valid examples then me thinks it's time for you to take some more leadership courses cause the ones you took to this point did no good. And based on your examples, if a Scouter wasn't a good Scout, he can't be a good Scouter! Not true! Not all good Scouts make good Scouters. Just like in sports. A good player doesn't equal a good coach.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

You got that backwards Ed.

 

It is your argument that a good leader must first be a good follower. So by your logic a Good Scout Leader would first have to have been a good Scout.

 

I'm saying that being a good Scout leader is unrelated to what kind of a scout you were. Being a good leader, scoutleader or otherwise, is an entirely different set of skills.

 

How did I learn leadership skills? The same as every competent leader I have ever known. I was taught by others in the skills of leadership, and then practiced through practical application in leadership roles. Certainly not by any experience as a follower.

 

Is some of this knowledge recorded in books? Well sure, but isn't that what books are for?

Am I less of a leader for reading them and applying the lessons in my life. I would think that's the purpose of learning.

 

Whether good followers or bad, neither become good leaders without leadership skills. If you are waiting for them to learn those as followers you not only have a long wait but you are missing the first responsibility of being a scoutmaster, to train junior leaders in leadership skills.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Your view of this subject is a little skewed. If you can't follow or maybe a better word is obey those in charge how can you expect people to follow or obey you when you are in charge?

 

Example - Billy Tenderfoot is on the duty roster as kitchen clean-up. Billy Tenderfoot plays around and is told by his PL to get his job done. Billy Tenderfoot still plays around & eventually his PL gets someone else to do the job. Now, Billy Tenderfoot has been elected PL. One of his Patrol members is on the duty roster as kitchen clean-up and does the same thing Billy did when he was a Tenderfoot. When Billy confronts this Scout, the Scout says " you did it when you were kitchen clean-up. Why can't I?"

 

See my point. You probably won't but try! It isn't that hard to understand.

 

My basic argument is you need to be a good follower to be a good leader. A good Scout doesn't translate to a good Scouter. Can't compare the two. A good adult Scout leader must be a good adult Scout follower 1st. It might not be in the book but it works.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10