Den getting very large

[billandt]

I have been in scouting for two years now. My son is a Bear this year and since the Tiger year I jumped in as DL and have continued along with taking care of the awards for our pack and being on committee. I feel like i have a pretty good sense of how things are handled or as least i did until recently. We have had an average of 9/10 scouts, a few have come and gone, that have been w me since tigers. We recently recruited 6 new boys. The Committee Chair and I discussed two dens with this high no. Several parents want two dens as some of the boys/parents dont get along perfectly. Four parents agreed to go into a seperate den w/me and I offered to take a few new scouts or none at all whichever made everyone happy. Another parent from the original den wants to be a leader so we have 2 DL and 2 DLA. Two parents fussed that they wanted to keep all the original boys together but there is no one from the new members wanting to take a DL role. Our COR will not allow the den to split thus leaving 15 boys in a Bear Den. Four of the families may quit scouting because they feel the COR will not honor their request for a new den which wld be safer, give ea scout more attn in the den, etc. I am schocked that no one is honoring the guidlines of 6-8 in a den or that of the request of these four families to be in a seperate den since we have the means. Any info wld be greatly appreciated.

Thx, T

[ChaiAdventure]

IMHO....

 

Your COR is asserting him/herself outside of their role (unless there is something written in the CO's charter that addresses numbers in the Den). This is a decision that should be made by the CM with the endorsement of the committee.

 

Additionally, as the DL, you can decide what you are willing to take on as far as numbers.

 

The guidelines for numbers of Cubs in a Den are there for a reason.

 

 

[billandt]

thanks for the info. From my reading and research, I was under the impression the Committee led by the Committee Chair was in charge of these matters. but I have also been told the COR has all decidiing authority. Does or can Council come in to help if having two smaller manageable dens is the best solution for the 15 scouts? Everyone in my pack believes the COR has final say and can overturn the committee. I really hate to see some of these good kids leave. The COR actually requested that the parents hold a "parents meeting" to make sure what the parents desires were. We met as told and 4 said yes to 2 dens, 2 said no, 2 said they were flexible out of the orginial families. The COR advised us he decided several days before the parent mtg to keep the den together. He made the parents vote now has ignored their voice. some parents are very upset so I said I would seek info.

 

Thx, T

 

 

[ScoutNut]

It is the job of the CC to work with the CM on the running of the Pack. Ideally, the CC, CM, and the DL's of the den involved should sit down and discuss weather or not a den needs splitting. With 16 Scouts, and 4 available leaders, this den should very definitely be split.

 

Deciding on weather or not a den is split is not the job of the COR. The COR is a liaison between the CO, the unit, and the District/Council. The COR is a communicator, and a resource. The COR helps provide leadership. The COR is responsible for making sure the CO's unit is strong, healthy, growing, and meeting the Charter Organizations needs. The COR does not make program decisions unless the health of the unit is at stake.

 

I would ask your CC to have a talk with the COR over a cup of coffee. The CC might also want to invite your Unit Commissioner to attend. The CC needs to find out exactly why the COR wants this den of 16 to stay together. The CC & UC should be prepared to explain the policies of the BSA regarding den size, and the problems involved in having such a large den. The CC should also explain that they are likely to LOSE BOYS if the den is not split. That is not healthy for the CO's unit.

 

If this talk does not work things out, then I suggest the CC & UC have a cup of coffee with the head of your Pack's Charter Organization. Perhaps it is time for the CO to appoint a new COR.

 

[billandt]

you guys sure know your stuff. I knew I would find some answers here. I am going to try and digest the info and sleep on it. Thanks a million for all the great info. I love scouting and am not going to let this minor conflict get me down. The smiles on the faces of my scouts when they come in the door asking what cool game is in store, makes it worth every minute! I know these are very sensitive issues though.

 

thanks again.

Teresa

[Twocubdad]

Is it possible there is a good reason for the COR not wanting to split the den, like not having sufficient meeting space for two dens? As providing meeting facilities is a primary responsibility of the chartered organization, that would be a legitimate concern of the COR. It's a reasonable question to ask before ticking off your sponsoring organization.

 

The neighboring pack to ours was like that. They had all the dens meet the same night in their church's Sunday school rooms. There was a finite number of rooms and the church put a limit on the number of scouts in each den. They felt too many was unsafe and led to an abuse of the facilities. Every year the pack leaders would come to school night sign ups with a shopping list of how many slots they had open in each den. "Well take four Tigers, two Wolves, five Bears...." Our pack was wide opend and took all comers.

[billandt]

Thanks for more input. I wld be holding mtgs at my home like previous years, so space is not an issue. I did talk w/the D.E. and he was a great guy! He totally understands the concerns of creating another den but suggested I possibly start a new pack if I had any others in the same situation in the pack with large den numbers. I guess I am leaning to that route since I don't want to argue with these folks about this issue. I have put forward very good reasons to have 2 dens and they say no. The committee has met with the COR and I don't see him changing his mind. The DE didn't seem to want to push them if they were unwilling to comply. It may be more work as I wld be ACM and DL in a new pack, but the scouts are worth it. Two families have really pleaded to keep all the scouts together, so I guess it is just a judgement call. I do commend the packs for not turning scouts away... that wld be hard for me to do. I might wld recommend a waiting list once a den has reached 10 scouts to prevent this in the future. I do understand some people feel we are going backwards by splitting. Do you know if the CM can also be a DL?

T

 

[ScoutNut]

Yes, the first thing a DE will do is to push starting a new Pack. Increase in members and units are major criteria in his pay raises.

 

Starting a new unit is VERY hard and time consuming. You can NOT be registered as both a Cubmaster and a den leader at the same time. You are already doing 3 jobs in your current Pack. Adding a few more, especially one as involved as CM is not a good idea, and will lead to burnout. A Pack will never succeed with one person doing everything.

 

Are all 4 of the Bear den leaders registered? Has everyone taken training yet?

 

If your Charter Org is not providing meeting room for the dens, and the other Bear leaders do not have space available in their homes (as you do), perhaps that is why the decision was made not to split. Perhaps not.

 

We can spend a lot of time here guessing about what might be going on. It is really hard for us to give you any kind of USEFUL feedback when we only have part of the information.

 

What were you told was the reason for not splitting the den?

 

 

 

[billandt]

We are just being told the original 10 boys should not be split up. Which I understand there view. It is just a very large den with the new 6 scouts after recruitment. Too bad a leader didn't come from the new scout families.

 

There is another DL that has shown an interest in being a CM (not me)but they are a DL in our current pack. So I understand if we start a new pack this DL wld have to be CM only. I personaly was hoping for ACM and still remain DL with my boys. I am definitely smart enough not to take on more than 2 roles. If the other dens are too crowded, maybe others wld feel the same way and welcome another smaller pack. If enough interest, I think a new pack cld work. I have received good info and I appreciate the forums time.

[ScoutNut]

If you have 4 registered Bear leaders (which you should have for the extra help even if you do not split) why not just split into 2 groups of 7-8 on your own? I do not recommend a 4-11 split as that still leaves one den too large.

 

You can get together for outings, and special projects, but work on your own for den meetings.

 

If neither of the 2 dens would be meeting at the CO, I do not see why you need the permission of the COR.

 

I really don't see the COR kicking the Scouts out because there are 2 groups.

 

Just do it.

 

 

[billandt]

ok, thank you for being direct. I do agree with you...just hope the COR doesn't get aggravated if we go against his direction. I will do my best and hope for the best.

 

This is a great forum. I believe my questions have been answered.

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

Teresa

 

 

[eghiglie]

Very interesting situation you have where the COR is involved in Den decisions. Maybe you can have coffee with him and find out? Perhaps the issue being relayed to him is not as you are experiencing.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[DeanRx]

I would say if you've been directed by the COR that the original 10 not be split up, then the COR and the CC need to meet with the new scout's parents and determine WHO is going to step up and be the DL for the ones that have recently joined.

 

The COR is WAY out of line IMHO and unless they can give a better reason than (I just don't want the original 10 split), then they are not helping their own unit. The CO owns the unit and with input from the COR aaproves WHO will be in key committee positions (i.e. CC, CM, ACM, maybe treasurer and DL's). The CO and COR should not be involved in directing program or determining unit structure. If the CO doesn't like the job the CC and CM are doing - they can choose to replace them, but that's about where their authority ends. CO's are not likely to replace folks willy-nilly or they'll soon find they have no pool of candidates to run their unit.

 

At this point - I'd say keep your orginal den and put the task of finding a second DL for the late-joining scouts squarely on the shoulders of the COR and the CC (since the CC and committee doesn't seem to want to support you in this either).

 

The DE is a retard for suggesting you start a new pack. That's their answer for everything... well that and "when is your next recruitment night?" or "When is your next FOS presentation?" DE's are good at trying to stay out of unit squables... I'm honestly surprised your DE would even discuss the matter with you. Most would turf it right back to the unit committee as an "internal unit issue" not a district level issue.

 

Good luck, but remember - you are NOT required to take on additional scouts if you don't feel you can handle the increase in numbers. Sometimes if you don't make a stand and force some folks to volunteer to be leaders, you'll find you are the only one raising your hand. If the new families want their son's to have a positive scouting expirience, then someone (or two) will step up and lead. Otherwise, the kids will go do something else.

 

That part is not your fault - do not let anyone from the committee or the COR guilt you into thinking so.

 

Good Luck