Dedication to the Program

[qwazse]

Pch, you beat me to it.

 

But, I think JoeBob isn't about to be fooled.

[Twocubdad]

My younger son earned his Eagle earlier this year (which technically makes me TwoEagleDad and gives you an idea of how long I've been a member here) and he turns 18 in a couple months. I hafta say sleeping on the ground isn't as much fun as it used to be, so I'll admit the thought of what I will do after Scoutmaster has entered my mind. But I there is still much more I enjoy about the program than what bugs me, I enjoy working with the Scouts and feel like I can still make a contribution. Plus my designated go-to ASM is between jobs and who knows where he will wind up. So I figure I still have a couple years left.

 

But as #2 finished Eagle, it has been fun to watch the parents and adults in the troop whig out as the thought occured to them I may not be SM forever. I've noticed that the parents who are the most concerned are those who counsel a few obscure merit badges and/or only camp when their sons do and preferably when it's 72, sunny and we're doing something particularly interesting.

 

The few who are really dedicated to the program -- the guys who participate whether their sons do or not -- don't seem as concerned, although they would be the most affected if I were to move on. They get it. Like me, they're here because they've made a commitment to the troop and the program, not just a commitment to do stuff for or with their son.

 

I don't expect folks to stay with the program forever. Folks' lives go through different phases and Scouting works better in some phases than others. But I agree with that "I'm only in it for my son, if he doesn't go on a campout why should I?" is selfish. What's more, it completely misses the purpose of Scouting -- we're not a lad-dad outdoors club. For the Sunshine Club to have a program to pick and choose from somebody made a real commitment to the program, rain or shine, son attending or not.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Cambridgeskip]

It's interesting watching this thread unfold as it shines a light on different scouting cultures around the world. The impression I have of scouting in the USA is that it is very family orientated with a big emphasis on parents leading the programme before moving on in time.

 

At the other end of this spectrum are countries like Hungary. In 2005 I took a group of scouts to the European Jamboree and we became quite friendly with a Hungarian unit. The leader in charge of them was just 19 and his assistants were of a similar age. This struck me a startlingly young to be running an international trip. I learned from him though that in Hungary they take the idea of "youth lead" to a whole new extreme. Unless you are a district commissioner or similar you are expected to retire as a leader at the age of 30, their argument being that it allows younger leaders to come through.

 

The UK is somewhere in between. We have parent leaders some of whom "retire" when their children leave, some of whom don't but it is more common for parents to take more supporting roles like group chair or treasurer. We also though encourage explorer scouts to take part in the young leader scheme so that when they turn 18 they become a full on adult leader (which is how I came through, I have no children yet but have racked up 16 years service!)

 

I don't think any particular culture is better than another, I just find it fascinating how it varies across the world.

[Twocubdad]

At World Jamboree in 2007 was an eye-opener for me in that the staff area look like a college campus. I was asked a number of times why the BSA leaders were all so old.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

I would suppose the main reason is that younger adults aren't stepping up into leadership position in the numbers needed.

 

The 'boomer generation, like me, are hanging on. But that is not going to last all that much longer.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

I would suppose the main reason is that younger adults aren't stepping up into leadership position in the numbers needed.

 

The 'boomer generation, like me, are hanging on. But that is not going to last all that much longer.

[Beavah]

I would suppose the main reason is that younger adults aren't stepping up into leadership position in the numbers needed.

 

Yah, if that's true, then I reckon it's a profound failure on our part in da BSA. It says a lot about how little we've taught about service, leadership, and citizenship.

 

I think more likely is da fact that young folks don't really want to hang around with old folks, eh? In da BSA no matter where yeh go, it's an Old Man's Club. Particularly at da district and council levels. We've had plenty of folks on da forums over the years say outright that they wouldn't trust a young adult who didn't grow up in their troop, and perhaps not even then. In a land as mobile as da U.S., with a large percentage of scouts goin' to college or military service away from home, I see us mostly pushin' our young folks away. Most of that is U.S. culture, not the BSA. Da land of the Fearful and da home of the Nannied.

 

I think there actually is a "better", Cambridgeskip. If yeh look at 9 year old or 11 year old or 13 year old scouts from Hungary or any of da places where youth leadership and independence are still valued, those kids are much physically, mentally, and especially emotionally stronger than our average U.S. scouts. It's one of da reasons why U.S. officials at World Jambos and other WOSM events come across to everyone else as such complete ninnies. What's common for 9-year-olds in Hungary is prohibited for 13-year-olds in da U.S., eh? And it would probably reduce our average 11-year-old to tears (with a charge of "hazing" on the adult leaders to boot! ).

 

American culture has become almost toxic for boys. If we can't emasculate 'em and keep 'em locked down with rules and regulations then we drug 'em.

 

We'd do well, I reckon, to implement a "no youth-contact scouters over 30" rule. Well, maybe 35 to take into account da older ages we tend to marry and have kids.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

Ummmm, maybe so. Not too familiar with Hungarian youth, so I'll take your word for it.

 

The easier answer to me is structural. Our system of sending 18-y.o.s off to school really short-circuits boys from moving into both leadership ranks or Venturing. In eight years, I can only think of a handful of guys aging out who have stayed in the area and not gone off to school somewhere. And honestly, of the guys who stayed around home, I wouldn't be too keen on having many of them as ASMs.

 

And even if we had the bodies, the program doesn't really encourage them. You're right, a big part of it is us old farts who look askew at an 18-y.o. adult leader. But the SOP discourages them too -- requiring 21-y.o. leaders on the ground and the whole silly mess with grey-area Scouts. In other countries like the UK there is a more natural progression from Scouting, Venturing and Roving. Venturing here isn't seen as a natural progression from Boy Scouting the way it is in other countries.

 

I have a couple guys in the troop now who will turn 18 during their junior year of high school -- one of them this spring. They have the potential of being at home, in high school with their same old routine for more than a year before they would go away to college. The kid who turns 18 this spring has told me he very much wants to stay involved with the troop. It should tell us something that his greatest concern is that he is able to remain with his patrol. Of course we have the stupid YP rule that he can't tent with the same guys he has tented with for the last seven year, but other than that, why not? And more to the point, why would he want to join a "patrol" with a bunch of 45- to 60-year-old men?

 

We don't offer them the sense of comraderie they have as Scouts -- just the opposite. By the book we cut them off from their friends. Do we expect them to enjoy hanging out with the old goats? To the original topic of the thread (you remember that, don't you?) they obviously aren't motivated by spending time with their children. You can bemoan the lack of leadership or sense of service in our 18-year-old-plus Scouts, but what are we offering them?

[desertrat77]

Seattle,

 

I think Beavah said it best, but can't resist adding a couple thoughts.

 

There are reasons why young folks aren't taking on leadership roles in the BSA--

 

- Good Olde Boys drive new people away

- BSA training and leadership emphasizes dull meetings and administrivia over outdoor adventure (or any exciting or dynamic event)

- Generally speaking, many youth may not be ready for leadership roles

 

Whose was going to better prepared for an adult leadership role--the scout sitting on a bench in a Saturday MB university, or the PL taking his patrol on a hike?

[Cambridgeskip]

Do your universities and colleges. Have such things as scout and guide clubs? If not it sounds like they need them. They are a huge success here and help recruit and retain younger leaders. The one in Cambridge essentially has 3 roles. It has a social role for just keeping the scout and girl guide fraternity together, it has a service side, laying on a number of events for the district each year (the annual indient hike for the scout and guide age range is superb) and finally they provide a match making service, placing students who want to be leaders with local groups.

 

It has been such a success that it was used as the basis for the current scout Network 18-25 age range which again provides a more social context for younger leaders.

 

But at the same there is a lot to be said for older leaders. While I have 3 ASLs who are students I also have one who is 69, has been at the group since he was a cub and who I would be lost without. His experience, skills and wisdom are invaluable. There is not a single issue I've had to deal with that he's not seen and dealt with in the past. And what's more the scouts adore him!

[BadenP]

 

 

Beavah and dessertrat pretty much said it all in a nice neat package. Our scouts are so overly protected the current BSA program turns them into a bunch of mommas boys, afraid of the outdoors, trying something out of their comfort zone, has turned the program into a classroom oriented instead of an outdoor oriented one, constant book and paperwork. Then leaders get upset when the boys tell them they are not having any fun and drop out, and the frustrated leaders soon follow suit. In my experience as a leader for 25 years and a scouting professional for 5 years IMHO the main problem lies mainly with the scouting professionals from the CSE right down to your local DE.

 

National is seriously nothing more than a group of business oriented yahoos, most of whom were unsuccessful in the busines world who think because they were scouts as kids they have all the answers to run the BSA, which we have all seen is just not true. The result has been from all their changes to the programs is that the numbers of youth and adult leaders continues to rapidly decline annually, yet they seem unable to understand why. The reality is if National remains on its present course the BSA as we know it will go under within another decade.

[Beavah]

The result has been from all their changes to the programs is that the numbers of youth and adult leaders continues to rapidly decline annually, yet they seem unable to understand why. The reality is if National remains on its present course the BSA as we know it will go under within another decade.

 

Nah, let's not overstate things, eh? The decline has been gradual annually, not rapid, and is likely to continue to be gradual.

 

There might be a tipping point at some point, but more likely we'll see just continued gradual decline. That won't drive da BSA under. Executive salaries can still be funded by endowment and contributions in perpetuity, especially if we keep sellin' camps and puttin' the money in endowment. Yeh don't actually need to have any outdoor program or even kids for da BSA to continue.

 

Probably da only thing that would be a game-changer is if a competitor sprung up, and the BSA government-pickin'-winners-and-losers partly prevents that. The presence of such a competitor could lead to a "rapid" decline.

 

Perhaps da Hungarians would be willin' to start some Hungarian scout groups over here.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Beav

 

BSA losses are currently decreasing at an ever increasing rate each year, especially in troops and boy scouts, and if something isn't done and done soon the BSA will become like Twinkies and Hostess Cupcakes, a fond relic of bygone days. The BSA is trying to reinvent the program to conform it to what they view as current societal norms because they think thats what the kids today want, and nothing is further from the truth.

 

Pretty soon it will just be us old timers talking about an organization that just faded away called the Boy Scouts of America and arguing about what happened, lol.

[hicountry]

As for an attitude of "I can't wait till I can drop out by adults....I can certainly understand it. It is not all the same motivations though that get people that way. There are some who were almost forced into it under bad circumstances that didn't go away, lazy folks who got into it and when they found out they actually ahd to do some work or help out a kid other than theri own had enough. Many of us got in for the right reasons, did a great job and put in effort but are at the point of burnout for many reasons described in other threads we don't have to rehash.....I was one of these type.

 

Now that my kids have aged out, I am detatched from scouting and have happily moved on to other things in life. Another aspect is as my kids and thier friends got older I changed and had a harder and harder time relating to 10 year olds which I needed to always be recruiting into the troop. Now that my boys are 18 and 19, moved on to college and adult activities and jobs, I feel no rrlation to scouts at all, it is as much in my rear view mirror as visits to Santa Claus, elementary school plays, high school sports etc.

 

I was fortunate to get a very good SM and CC to take over for my departure and the troop I rebuilt from the dead back in 2006 is continuing to thrive today under his leadership.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello hicountry,

 

People are entitled to take from Scouting the things they find valuable and interesting. When adults have had enough, they are entitled to leave for new adventures in life.

 

Thanks for your contributions while you were in Scouting!

 

Go with God.