One and done?

[ntrog8r]

Kudu,

 

The quote I was referencing is, Advancement should be like a tansomething you get effortlessly while having fun in the out-of-doors. I've seen this attributed to Lord BP many times over the years. Although I have no primary source to quote it from.

 

While trying not to debate semantics, I'd rather gauge proficiency through repetitive performance and observation. Rather than scheduled testing/retesting I prefer to see Scouts _use_ the skill more than once, or twice, or thrice...

 

Obviously we agree on proficiency vice a single-pass performance (or test), and on the removal of Hillcourt from Scouting! I guess one day I'll have to stop reading my old books. And yet, the Patrol Method (boy-led even if adult inspired) addresses so many of these concerns. Maybe I'll just look them over one more time.

[Kudu]

 

The semantics of Fake B-P quotes? Scouting is a trick that indoor adults play on boys looking for outdoor adventure.

 

ntrog8r writes:

 

"I'd rather gauge proficiency through repetitive performance and observation. Rather than scheduled testing/retesting I prefer to see Scouts _use_ the skill more than once, or twice, or thrice..."

 

In B-P's Patrol System, that observation is done by semi-permanent Patrol Leaders, the equivalent of our Assistant Scoutmasters.

 

Patrol Leaders schedule regular testing/retesting for Tenderfoot through First Class on Patrol Hikes.

 

Solo Journeys and Expeditions are the "final" proficiency tests for Second Class through the highest awards in Scouting, including those of the adult Rover program.

 

ntrog8r writes:

 

"the Patrol Method...addresses so many of these concerns."

 

Yes. With its government-imposed corporate monopoly secure, the BSA began to back out of its program obligations. The First Class Journey disappeared about the same time that West hired Hillcourt to bring the Patrol Method to the United States.

 

Hillcourt filled that unsupervised outdoor adventure vacuum by teaching American Patrol Leaders how to lead Patrol Hikes and Overnights without adult supervision. Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training actually emphasized Patrol Camping apart from the Troop more than Baden-Patrol's 300 foot Patrol System.

 

As Hillcourt retired in 1965, Bla Bnthy's army of BSA millionaires began their highly successful assault on outdoor Patrol leadership skills.

 

So, my vote for the perfect bookend to Basementdweller's favorite None & Done requirement is Camping Merit Badge requirement 9b, which guarantees that in addition to never having to light a campfire, an Eagle Scout need never have walked into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

In a perfect world, the BSA would add that "requirement 9b" to ALL required Merit Badges, so that an outdoor boy who hates schoolwork requirements as much as an Eagle CSE hates camping, could optionally rappel 30 feet at the mall, ride his bike around the parking lot for four hours, or float downstream on an inner tube whilst eating cupcakes

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[BadenP]

Kudu

 

Well Said!

It is truly sad to have to witness the continuing deterioration of the BSA outdoor emphasis by National and the growing number of SM's and ASM's who have all but eliminated the outdoor experience in their troop programs.

[FScouter]

Individual troops determine whether or not they emphasize outdoor activites. If troops decide to eat cupcakes indoors, that is solely their decision.

[BadenP]

Fscouter

 

Once again you totally missed the salient points of Kudu's post and instead offer your usual irrelevant and inane off the issue reply.

[qwazse]

Not cupcakes, but ... SPL asked if the boys could bake cookies next meeting!

[FScouter]

Non sequitur Mr. Baden

[fred8033]

Well written? I don't know.

 

I often get confused by Kudu's quotes and descriptions. Sometimes he's referencing BSA scouting; othertimes UK scouting and still othertimes a scouting ideal that I'm not sure ever existed. Sometime's he's refering to Baden Powell, the person, and other times he's talking about the Baden-Powell Scout Association, which from what I can see was not founded by Baden Powell as it was created in 1970, many years after BP died. When I see it written as "B-P's Patrol System", that seems to reference the 1970's created B-P scout association and not Baden Powell, the person.

 

...

 

I'm still fairly new, but I've seen nothing from the past that talked about patrol leaders scheduling regular testing / retesting for rank requirements "on patrol hikes". I'd love to see that training materials. Not saying it's not there, but I'd love to see the reference materials.

 

...

 

From what I do see, the BSA never had a "First Class Journey" as in a long hike that was part of some cumulative test of first class skills. The only requirement I found was removed in 1948 and referenced taking a seven mile out and seven mike back hike as part of earning first class. Overnight was optional, not required. Then the scout wrote down what was observed on the hike. No create master journey.

 

http://www.troop97.net/pdfbin/bsa_ranks.pdf

 

...

 

As for whether it's well said or not, I'm not sure. BSA has and always will be about the outdoors. Maybe the scouts don't have to walk five miles thru deep snow to get to school every day. But, scouting has been and always will be about the outdoors.

 

...

 

I need to always remember that this web site is not strictly about BSA scouting and that every post is not necessarily talking about BSA scouting. There's many other scouting programs and concepts out there.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Actually, F Scouter is exactly correct here.

 

In fact, it is the freedom individual units have to set their own program and emphasize different things in their program that allows Kudu to establish his own standards for rank advancement if he wants to do so.

 

He's not adhering to the BSA recommended program in the description of the standards and methods he describes in his post. But frankly, if he wants to have a more rigorous program I wouldn't stand in his way.

[BadenP]

SP

 

The problem with F-Scouters view is that more and more troops are doing less and less outdoor activities which is becoming more the norm than the exception,and the deemphasis and dumbing down of the "official" outdoor requirements just reinforces the problem. The boy scout program sadly has become more sedentary in nature in many troops in my council, and in many others as well according to my scouter friends in other councils.

[FScouter]

My "view" baden, is that it is not "national" as you say that dumbs down or deemphasizes outdoor programs. Units do that, not "national".

[Eagle92]

Not BP quotes, but Green Bar Bill's.

 

OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." 3rd ed. SMHB and yes national mangled it in the current BSHB.

 

SCOUTING IS OUTING This is in a bunch of his works, but I best remember it, as well as his rendition of the Scout Oath and Law, from a 1990 scout show. Bold is to emphasise how he said it: with feeling and emotion.

 

But when a troop can do four camp outs a year and qualify fro J2E, that's a problem.

 

When you cannot use the current BSHB for camping info, instead having to use older BSHBs, that's a problem.

 

When the IOLS syllabus encourages using a sign off as soon as the trainees do the skill, "just like your scouts," which encourages a "one and done" mentality, that's a problem.

 

When candidates for the OA do not know what to pack, or how to waterproof their gear in their back packs, that's a problem.

 

When you got scouts who are First Class and above, along with a 20 something Eagle, who get lost and cannot backtrack to find their way, only to be rescued a few yards from the trail to the parking lot, yep you got a problem.

 

 

[JoeBob]

Fred,

 

As much as I wish you statement:

"BSA has and always will be about the outdoors."

was true; I can't agree.

 

My troop, and many of the other posters here, are lamenting the shrinkage of outdoor skills and program content.

 

We need to get the boys back in the woods!

 

And a with a tip of the hat to Kudu: Back in the woods ALONE! (without an adult hovering)

[Beavah]

My "view" baden, is that it is not "national" as you say that dumbs down or deemphasizes outdoor programs. Units do that, not "national".

 

Yes and no, eh?

 

Of course units are da ones that actually run programs for youth. "National" doesn't. So yah, sure, "dumbing down" of outdoor program happens at da unit and council camp level.

 

But as we see here often, it's a product of national's materials and training that allows and encourages unit and council volunteers to do that dumbing down, eh? All yeh need to do is pick up any thread on "don't add to the requirements" and "no retesting", the two magical phrases which override all the rest of the program in many people's minds, includin' some on da national advancement team.

 

If we were really teachin' kids outdoor skills, then retesting shouldn't matter a lick. If yeh know how to ride a bike, yeh can retest on it any time. If yeh know how to grill a steak, yeh can retest on it any time. Same with any skill that yeh really know. "Here, watch me do it!" says any confident, red-blooded boy. A lad who really knows how to swim is always ready to dive in and show you!

 

If we were really teachin' kids outdoor skills, we would always be addin' to da requirements, because yeh can't reduce outdoor skills to a list of enumerated items. Instead of makin' 'em "tell" the 9 steps of Safety Afloat, we'd be expectin' 'em to actually plan and lead safe trips afloat. Instead of "telling" da symptoms of a heart attack and "explaining" CPR we'd moulage up a victim who was "experiencing" a heart attack and see if a lad recognizes and responds, and does good CPR for the poor plastic gent in cardiac arrest. Instead of "explaining" how to handle food safety, we'd expect the boys to actually handle food safely in a variety of conditions.

 

It's when da national program materials say that boys only have to explain how to handle food safely, and then they imply that yeh can't add to that by making sure they really handle food safely, that folks get confused. And then they say that yeh can't ever ask 'em again to see if they really learned how to handle food safely or just crammed it in short-term memory that folks get da wrong idea. And then parents and well-meaning district nitwits wag their fingers and thump on their books and say you can't deny junior his First Class badge even though he made his whole patrol sick. There's an illegible scrawl of a signature on the line that proves he "explained" safe food handling. No adding! No retesting!

 

Yep, a troop can fix da problem by doin' its own thing and followin' da real program that makes for men of honor and good character, and ignorin' such silliness. I just reckon lots of us think it would be a tad easier if our program materials actually reflected da expectation of proficiency that we should have of all our boys. It's an easy enough fix, eh? Every rank and badge requirements list begins with "To earn this recognition, a scout must demonstrate personal proficiency in all of the listed skills and activities in the field. He must demonstrate the skills on his own, without help or prompting, and on demand. Skills may be retested at any point up to the award of the badge, and after receiving a recognition a scout is on his honor to maintain his skills for as long as he wears the uniform. "

 

Beavah

 

[desertrat77]

"Birds of a feather...."

 

While units can decide how much or little they are outdoors, the plain fact is National sets the tone.

 

This is true in any organization. Senior leadership sets the priorities and subordinate units follow.

 

Status quo: outdoor involvement is up to the unit. But at many districts, and above, the attitude from BSA leaders--vols and execs--is that outdoor adventure is considered a quaint relic. Something to keep the boys occupied. Sell some over-priced equipment with the BSA logo on it to make a buck. Campfire smoke is annoying. And so are bugs. Etc.

 

Awhile back, during one of our WB threads, Kudu posted a website that referred to White Stag leadership training, and how, in the '60s, this management style training became the basis for WB, and planted the seed that moved the BSA away from the outdoors to indoors (Kudu, not sure if I captured that right but hope I'm close).

 

So I went to the website and browsed...seems to me that a) only one of them was an outdoorsman, and b) lots of airy-fairy discussions, Academic approach. Lots of time sitting in the mess hall, or around a picnic table, looking at an easel.

 

I thought "Wow, Kudu is right on the money." I could now see how the BSA has come to this point. Years ago, the BSA began to move away from the outdoors. And has recruited a couple generations of leaders that feel the same way because the "pinnacle" of BSA adult training isn't based on the outdoors.

 

"Birds of a feather"--folks that are comfortable in the board room, but not on the trail, will attract fellow vols and execs who are like-minded. Sure, true outdoors-minded men and women can thrive in a troop or crew. But it's oil/water above the troop level.

 

So FScouter, yes, a troop can set their own outdoor agenda. But when that troop has a heavy bureaucracy of non-outdoor minded people above it, it's not going to get the support it needs. Nor is the BSA going to attract the kind of adult vols and execs it needs to encourage an outdoor program. The sedentary, play-it-safe, meeting/homework-oriented priorities of the BSA today is effecting the entire movement.

 

We got a bit of a reprieve in the '70s, when there were enough old school scouters to get us thru the lame "Improved Scouting Program" that definitely strived to deemphasize the outdoors. In the '80s, GB Bill's new BSA handbook breathed fresh life into the movement. But in the late '80s, as a unit level leader, I could see the handwriting on the wall. Lots of non-outdoor people at the helm. At all levels.

 

The troop is usually going it alone.