2 deep leadership for larger groups

[SM_Travis]

I know we need at least 2 leaders regardless of the number of youth. My question is whether we need more with a larger group. I have always believed that we needed a maximum of 5 youth per adult. So 1-10 Scouts need 2 adults, 11-15 Scouts need 3 adults, 16-20 Scouts we need 4, and so on. I can't seem to find this in writing, although I haven't looked that hard. Is this right or am I adding a requirement?

[JMHawkins]

A 5:1 ratio sounds like a reasonable goal for Cub Scouts. If you're talking about Boy Scouts, that is too low. The real ratio depends on the maturity of scouts and the capability of the adults, but there's no reason 2 adults can't handle 20+ reasonably responsible Boy Scouts.

 

I know of no written requirement for Boy Scouts beyond the 2-deep requirement.

[click23]

The online Tour and Activity Plan seems to have a max ratio of 1:10. This is not on the printed form, nor in any other scout material that I have seen.

 

Just as a reference, Jamboree troops have 36 youth and 4 adults.

[OldGreyEagle]

Bump to this thread

[Basementdweller]

Sorry OGE.....didn't see this one

 

 

 

Your screen name says SM so I am going to assume that we are talking Boy Scouts not Cubs....

 

But I regularly take the troop 22 active. with one asm...If we do not leave the council boundary we do not need a tour permit.

 

It depends on the boys.....would I take 20 11 year olds, with only two adults, NO. or 20 17 year olds....piece of cake.

 

 

There are some common sense things....If a boy has an issue the entire group goes to the ER or we wait for the Parents to come get him......So if you had 4 adults.....two could haul the injured scout to the ER and two could stay at camp.

[fred8033]

It really depends on your scouts. There have been times when our SM could not attend and I (CC) was the lead adult along with an ASM. I have no problem if two adults take 20 or more Boy Scouts on a camp out. Heck, the boys are to run it and have their program.

 

BUT ... we currently have several special needs scouts, both autistic and emotional disorders. As such, we staff to deal with it. But if we did not have those scouts with us, I'd be perfectly fine with two-deep leadership.

 

...

 

The year before I joined the troop, the SM only had one other adult at summer camp for the week. Worked fine. Just had to recruit drivers for the rides home. Camp staff was there to supplement if there was a real emergency. Scouts pretty much run the troop and wake up the scoutmaster for morning flags.

 

...

 

I'll take two-deep leadership anyday over what I've seen lately. Our city has several troops with way too many adult leaders. It's like every parent is an ASM or MC. On any given day, they have 15 to 25 adults at summer camp. IMHO, that takes away from the scout experience.

[SM_Travis]

Our Troop seems to think there is a rule like I stated, no more than 1:5. I have just always accepted it. But when I mentioned that I couldn't find it anywhere in writing, everyone looked at me like I was on crack. Good to hear that it isn't necessary. Not that we don't usually hit it, but there are times (the local summer camp, in particular) where we struggled to have our necessary 3 or 4 leaders there at all times. Now I'm not going to worry about it.

 

We more commonly have the problem of too many adults. Never 1:1, but 1:3 is normal. Last weekend I had 5 adults and 13 Scouts. That's too many adults for me to keep them all away from the boys. Someone always manages to sneak by me so they can "help".

[Gunny2862]

Those sound like Cub numbers that transitioned with some Parent.

 

Even in Paid Non-Scouting childcare the numbers here (may not be correct in your municipality) run along the lines of 1-2 Infants, 1-5 toddlers(age 1 to 3), 1-10 children (age 3 to 12) and there isn't a specified number above age 12, but your Insurance carrier would like to have a conversation about that.

[The Blancmange]

The OP does not mention who within the troop thinks that this is a rule. "The Troop" is incapable of thinking on its own (and many may be able to identify people in leadership roles incapable of doing so as well).

 

As has been noted elsewhere, there is nothing that prevents a chartering organization from imposing more strict requirements than those from BSA. So, if the CO is requiring a 1:5 ratio, then you are stuck with it unless they can be convinced otherwise.

[Oak Tree]

I'm with click23 - I've never seen the ratio documented in any printed material. The G2SS lists the ratio of 10:1 for aquatics activities, but not for anything else.

 

I think it depends a lot on the Scouts and the activity. For trips with 16 and 17 year-olds that I know, I'd be comfortable with a small number of adults. If we're managing a bunch of 11-13 year-olds in a situation with several stations, might need more.

 

There is definitely no 5:1 ratio in Boy Scouts unless your CO or troop decide you want one.

[SM_Travis]

I'm guessing that this "rule" transferred from Cubs. I would doubt that the CO would have set the rule. The consensus of the adults (including the outgoing SM) was that this was a BSA rule. If it is not, then I am more comfortable letting in slide and if someone wants to challenge me on it then I can give them the task of finding out whose rule it is. I would guess it is "unwritten", or in other words, not really a rule at all.

 

Compared to where they were 4 years ago, this is a very boy led Troop. Compared to where I want to take them, there is still a long road ahead. Getting rid of 1/2 of the parents at campouts is a small step the right direction. Not that they are necessarily a problem, but it's hard to keep that many parents away from the Scouts (and the Scouts away from their parents). It also gives us less of a family camp/babysit feel if there aren't as many adults.

[OldGreyEagle]

Climb On Safely says that One adult supervisor is required for every 10 participants with a minimum of two adults for any one group.

[OldGreyEagle]

Climb On Safely says that One adult supervisor is required for every 10 participants with a minimum of two adults for any one group.

[OldGreyEagle]

Climb On Safely says that One adult supervisor is required for every 10 participants with a minimum of two adults for any one group

 

So, if you had 30 people climbing, you would three adults. Now, this is only for Climbing, I dont know about other specific activities, but generally two adults are enough for any activity unless specifics call for more supervision. Then again I would expect anyone who is doing a speficic acitivity, such as CLimbing, or Caving, or whatever would look at who was going and deciding upfront what level of skill the participants had and how any helpers (adult or otherwise) were needed

[infoscouter]

The Guide to Safe Scouting says:

 

"Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities."

 

So it's up the CO, through their relationship with the adult leaders, to ensure that sufficient adults are present at an outing. "Sufficient adults" is going to vary, based on a lot of factors - where you're camping; what activities are planned for the event; youth behavior or health considerations; age of participants are all factors we consider when deciding how many adults we "need" at an event.

 

This can also work the other way. If you have too many hovering parents, you can allocate the 3 or 4 or however many adult slots to those with particular skills/training required for the event and wave goodbye to the parents in the parking lot.

:-)