Webelos woods/camporee

[namu35950]

ok need everyone opinion and or facts. Another district was having their camporee/webelo woods in our district, since it was in our district they decided to invite us. No problem, after looking over there leaders guide we decided that the event was to expensive for our troop, also a couple other troops decided the same thing. We decide to hold a "mini" camporee/webelo woods, involuing 3 troops and 2 packs. We thought about holding it at a local scout camp and use the climbing tower and rifle range for wrist rockets. Took all the training, but found out that for Webelos to use wrist rockets that it had to be a district event. The general plan was this arrive at camp on friday night and stay until Sunday, have troops teach a few webelos items, cook meals for them, and open up climbing wall and wrist rockets for them. Ask the DE to make it a district event, got the email back, saying he could not do that. Stating that Webelos could not spend the night at a district event with boy scouts. but could come for day time activities.

 

wow

1. webelos are encouraged to spend the night with a troop

2. Webelos can use climbing tower and rifle range

3 Webelos cannot do both on the same weekend???

 

Does anyone else find this strange?

 

your thoughts please

[pchadbo]

Yes it is strange, yes you are correct. Yay for the G2SS!!!

[ghermanno]

Namu35950,

 

It appears that the old "pick a-line and run with it" type training has hit your DE. The BSA has decided "in its infinite wisdom" that WEBELOS are NOT allowed to overnight at a Camporee. If you remove the word Camporee from your outing, your narrowminded DE will probably approve. It is NOT that they can not attend a Scout outing it is that BSA will NOT allow them to attend/participate in a Camporee.

 

Your event appears to cover the requirements of haveing the events for the Webelos vice having them watch the Scouts. Have fun

 

My $0.02

 

Rick

[ScoutNut]

District events have different rules/regs than Troop events.

 

The rule that Cub Scouts (Webelos) are not allowed to participate in Boy Scout activities (Camporee) has been around for a long time.

 

Cub Scouts have different rules than Boy Scouts. Cub Scouts are only allowed to participate in CUB SCOUT level activities.

 

This is why councils combine a Webelos-ree/Woods with a Boy Scout Camporee. The Boy Scouts do Boy Scout activities, the Webelos do Cub Scout activities, and watch the Boy Scout activities so they see what they can be doing in the next year or two when they are Boy Scouts.

 

As to Webelos using the climbing tower and rifle range (on either the same, or different weekends) -

 

Per BSA Shooting Sports Manual on Cub Scouts -

 

"Shooting items from slingshots and wrist rockets can be dangerous. For these activities, follow the same safety guidelines and rules as used for BB gun shooting. Always shoot at a range such as an archery or BB gun shooting range."

 

"Cub Scout shooting sports programs may be conducted only on a district or council level. Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. The use of pellet air rifles is restricted to Webelos Scouts in a BSA resident camp setting only."

 

"All shooting ranges in the Cub Scout program must be supervised by a qualified range master who is at least 18 years of age and who meets the minimum requirements. See specific qualifications and training requirements for BB gun and archery range masters under Shooting Sports Personnel Descriptions in Chapter 1, and in Section V, Cub Scout Shooting Sports."

 

"BSA BB Gun Range Master

Eighteen years of age or older and trained by a National Camping School shooting sports director or National Rifle Association rifle instructor, or NRA/USA Shooting/CMP certified rifle coach

Is in charge of the firing line at any time it is in operation

BB gun training must be renewed every two years, and this person must have a current Training Course Certificate, No. 33767."

 

From BSA Guide to Safe Scouting -

 

"BSA units that want to conduct their own bouldering, climbing, rappelling, or other related climbing activities must follow the requirements set forth in Climb On Safely."

 

From BSA Climb on Safely -

 

"Webelos Scouts

Bouldering no higher than the climbers shoulder height, with trained spotters.

Climbing in a climbing gym or using a portable wall or other age-appropriate facility with close supervision and age-appropriate instruction and equipment.

Rappelling with a trained belayer.

No belaying by Webelos Scouts. Climbers must be belayed by trained belayers."

 

"There must be a minimum of two (qualified) instructors for all climbing and rappelling activities (up to 12 participants) and one additional instructor (at least 18 years of age) for up to each additional six participants, maintaining a 6:1 ratio."

 

"A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor who is at least 21 years of age and trained in the specific type of climbing must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances."

 

"Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:

BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)

National Outdoor Leadership School

Wilderness Education Association

American Mountain Guides Association

Eastern Mountain Sports

University or college climbing/rappelling instructors

Professional Climbing Guide Institute

Professional Climbing Instructors Association"

 

 

You state you "took all the training". What training was that exactly?

 

 

 

[JMHawkins]

ScoutNut, it's no use quoting chapter and verse from the rulebook. When the end result still comes down to:

 

1. webelos are encouraged to spend the night with a troop

2. Webelos can use climbing tower and rifle range

3 Webelos cannot do both on the same weekend???

 

then the rules are fouled up. It's one thing to say "Boy Scouts can do these things, Cub Scouts can't" but the rules don't say that. They just say "Cub Scouts CAN do these things, but only when Boy Scouts aren't around." That's a different message.

 

Making rules is something people should do with a high degree of humility. It's hard, and you make mistakes. Better to acknowledge and correct them when they're pointed out.

 

 

 

 

[namu35950]

We have a 2 BSA climbing instructors, have 4 Range Masters, we found out that you could not offer climbing wall, or BB/Archery to Cub Scouts unless it was a district event, but if Webelo woods is district event, how can Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts spend the night together and do the activities? You can do one of the other, just not both at the same time.

[Tokala]

namu, you can't do them together. That's policy. We just had a similar episode here with a District inviting Webelos to camp at the District Boy Scout Camporee. It just doesn't happen. I don't see it being a big deal. Why not have different events and tailor the activities for each age group?

[pchadbo]

"we found out that you could not offer climbing wall, or BB/Archery to Cub Scouts unless it was a district event, but if Webelo woods is district event, how can Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts spend the night together and do the activities? You can do one of the other, just not both at the same time."

 

Sure you can just two seperate events running simoultaneously runn a camporee AND a Webelos Woods together.

 

[FScouter]

Kudos to the DE that said "NO".

 

A Boy Scout Camporee is for Boy Scouts and I don't think it has much to do with "rules" or safety.

 

In our troop, boys have said many times over the years they don't like a bunch of little kids running around at their Camporee. The district Camporee folks try to accomodate Cubs the best they can but it results in dumbed down events, competitiions that are unbalanced, and accomodations for the little kids that simply make the whole affair look like a little kid thing that older Boy Scouts don't want to mess with.

 

The worst part is the overnight aspect with mommies and daddys and sisters and brothers all coming to be a part of it too.

 

Cubs have Pack Family Camp. Boy Scouts have Camporee. They're not the same animal.

[desertrat77]

LOL, FScouter, you crack me up....

 

The BSA has had Webs attending camporees for decades. The young guys participate in what they can, observe the stuff they can't, and otherwise get a taste of what the next level of scouting is like.

 

If your experience shows that camporee events are dumbed down for the Webs, and it's all doom and gloom, that's a local problem, specificially one of weak leadership.