Why Did F-scouter pull the thread on BSA and molesters?

[JMHawkins]

It might be a good time for each of us to take a few moments and think about what it is we - personally - want to get out of these forums. We come from different backgrounds, different politics, we have different opinions on lots of stuff. We can certainly find no shortage of topics to argue about, but is that what we're here for?

[packsaddle]

Eagledad, you're up for the next time in that case.

 

JM, Partly for the camaraderie but also partly we are here to argue. I've written this many times now but it bears repetition: I learn far more from persons who disagree with me than I do from those who 'know' the same stuff I 'know'. Now that doesn't necessarily make the process easy, painless, or pretty. But if someone has better reasoning than I have, I want to benefit from their thoughts even if I have to admit I'm wrong.

 

But there are constructive ways to argue and destructive ways. And when it gets personal, it gets destructive. Beavah and I agree on a few things and one of them is that it helps to attack the idea, not the person. To be sure, some people are so attached to the idea that they take it personally when the idea is attacked. That's when things can spiral out of control. But around the campfire, the rest of us ought to be able to 'moderate' those interactions if needed.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK. So not only do I talk funny, but I don't read too well, eh? Hypothetically speakin' of course. Time to go visit da eye doc for a new set of lenses I guess.

 

I reckon I hang out to learn new things in part. Helpin' scouters and units, it's always good to hear new ideas, or old problems raised in different ways. Adds to the tools I have and da ways I think about things. Even folks I've disagreed with have helped me refine my thinkin' or change my approach. One of da strengths of Scoutin' to my mind is that there is a lot of genuine diversity of approach to the program, and of people and ideas, yet we all share some deeply held common beliefs about character and service and da importance of helpin' kids grow. So there's a lot to learn from, and yet a lot we share.

 

I reckon I hang out to try to be helpful where I can. Sometimes, just to offer a perspective that's a bit different perhaps.

 

Yah, sure, and I agree with packsaddle, eh? I like a good discussion or argument around da campfire. Helps me think and learn. Hopefully helps others as well. People should be respected, but ideas should be beaten to within an inch of their lives. One of da easiest things to do sometimes is to fool ourselves, eh? We need our ideas to be challenged. It's an act of kindness and compassion. In da legal profession, folks hope that adversarial argument and da principled use of reason help people get to da truth, eh? But it's da truth that is the goal, and reason da language, and da fellow you're arguin' with is not the enemy, he's a friend and colleague.

 

And often in da end neither you nor he can see da truth, but those listenin' to the arguments and applyin' their own reason can, and that's enough. So sometimes here I enjoy playin' jury and just listenin' to others' discussions.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

In most cases you are right Beveaher, but there really wasn't a lot to say in that discussion. Lesson to learn, Im not sure. Merlyn gets credit for posting a factual story, but the reality is Merlyn was just taking another slap at the BSA. OK, so we should turn the other cheek, which many of us did. But the subject was also an opening for those so called friends of the BSA to get their lick in as well. There are some disturbed mean angry folks in this group and one has to wonder if they talk to their scouts the same way. I think its fair to say that 2/3s of the posts contributed nothing to that discussion. Maybe even of the posts.

 

The posts about the Eagle project is even more disturbing. The poor OP got hit with ridiculous personal accusations that certainly had nothing to do with the subject. To be honest, Im embarrassed for us as scouters when new folks are fried because of the way they asked a real scouting question. In fact, it is likely they will get accused of something no matter what they ask. Are we supposed to learn from such intellectual discourse?

 

Until we start holding each other accountable for juvenile attacks on each other, real discussions are going to become more rare and we will only attract angry folks dressed as scout leaders looking for a place to vent. Lets face it, this forum is an attraction for such folks.

 

Barry

 

[CA_Scouter]

Echoing Barry's comments about newcomers getting fried, there used to be a time on this forum when that was the rule, not the exception. I stopped posting for a while (and am still pretty careful when I do) because of the tendency for some folks to spin an innocent/ignorant question into personal criticism. Thankfully those persons no longer participate and its a friendlier place.

 

I did think the thread was getting out of hand and morphing into personal criticisms, name calling and not sticking to the original subject. That tends to happen when arguing with the Big M. It also tends to happen when arguing with 6 year olds so it seems silly to continue the discussion. IMHO.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, CA_Scouter, I hear yeh. Now that the thread's back up, I can see more of where it went with da playground insults.

 

The posts about the Eagle project is even more disturbing. The poor OP got hit with ridiculous personal accusations that certainly had nothing to do with the subject.

 

Am I missin' a thread Eagledad? I confess I don't read half of 'em, and others I just quick skim. Are yeh talkin' about da Eagle project scope thread? I just went back and re-read that one, and I'm not sure I saw any personal accusations, let alone ridiculous ones. There is some confusion because Thomas54 put related information in a second thread that not everyone had read, and some of da usual misinterpretation/talkin' past each other. Nuthin' unusual . Or personal. I thought FrankScout had da best grasp of da situation with his background with da American Legion.

 

Maybe I missed another thread that disappeared?

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

I have been around for a little while.

During this time I have crossed swords with a few Forum Members.

Looking back there were times where even today I in my heart of hearts know I was right and there are times when I was way off the mark and I'm not proud of myself for that!

As a moderator there have been a time or two when I've over stepped things and been a real prig.

Again I'm not proud of that.

Over the years in the Forum there has been some on going clashes.

Two people who no matter what would never in a million years admit that the other was right.

At times these were funny and entertaining but after a while it just got really old and very boring.

Along with being old and boring it didn't do much to show that we as Scouter's are playing our part to live up to the Oath and Law that we hold so dear.

 

Some of the topics that have come up over the past few months have been hard to discus.

At least I can say they are hard for me as I find that a lot of the times I have a foot in each camp. Hard because I see both sides of the argument and I'm left sitting on the fence.

I have only met a couple of Forum members face to face and I know that I'm guilty of having some Members who maybe I value more than others. All too often people who most of the time agree with me and I with them.

Still I really do believe that there isn't a person who posts in this Forum who ever would want to see any kid hurt or harmed.

I do think that the BSA has made mistakes and I also believe that they and us will learn from them. - Please God, let's hope so!

 

I do value my dear pal packsaddle.

I don't always agree with him and think at times he is very misguided. -But I think most Republicans are!

Every now and then a thread that calls what the moderators have done pops up.

As a rule the moderators as a group stand up and say that they are sticking together and as a group say what was done was the right move.

To be honest I wasn't really following the thread in question.

But when it comes to allowing people free speech and standing up for free speech, what I know of packsaddle? He gets my vote.

 

I find it sad when no matter what the reason no matter how right or how wrong someone is that the discussion falls into calling the other guy or group of guys names or just being rude.

Yes I know that I've been party to this and I'm not free from my share of sins.

 

I think maybe we should all be able to accept that packsaddle did and acted on what he thought was for the best.

If we really know that someone is upsetting us? Just ignore him or her. You can of course whisper anything you like in the comforts of wherever it is when you read what's going on.

Even if you can't find it in you to respect the other person maybe we might all try just being nice?

Ea.

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"Republican?", he sputtered, lol. Or as Dr. Smith used to exclaim in 'Lost in Space', "Oh, the pain!"

Seriously, thanks guys for the good words. All I was doing was trying to cool things down a bit. I didn't have a dog in that fight but it looked like some good people were getting pretty hot. I really would like for these games of tag to be played a little more nicely. So I pulled the plug for a while. I'm actually surprised at how mild the responses were. Besides there's nothing anyone in these forums can say that can come close to comparing to the wrath of my wife.

 

Eamonn, You know well, I've been there (intemperate responses) myself but I guess I've mellowed over the years. Plus some recent things make threads like that seem less significant. You and I agree a lot more than you might think.

 

I wish everyone well...so play nicely. Please.

[Tampa Turtle]

Lost in Space! When I was 10 I used to have the worst crush on the younger daughter Penny. I think it was the straight hair. Sorry I saw the bunny and got distracted.

 

I find the range of opinions here (on ANY issue, it seems) personally valuable to me as a Scouter. I bring back to my Troop the arguments presented here both pro and con as needed. I think it helps move forward the decision making process with our boys. So I, in general, like leaving the threads and just avoiding the ones that I feel insulted by. You don't have to help your self to the whole pie.

[NJCubScouter]

Anyone who thinks the moderators in this forum do their jobs with too heavy a hand needs to get out more... meaning, out on the Internet more. It is a nasty virtual place out there, from which this is a relatively sheltered, tranquil oasis. Of course, that's a bit of an exaggeration, since things do tend to get heated in Issues and Politics, but my point is that I would classify this forum as being "lightly moderated." I have seen too many forums where someone (often someone about half the probable age of most of the mods in this forum, or less) gets a title and a few tools to keep things under control, and suddenly they are commander of all they survey, and then there is the inevitable invasion of Russia in wintertime, and it's all downhill from there.

 

As for the thread in question, it was getting out of hand, and I think it was reasonable to do something about it, if only to hide it for awhile so things could cool down, which is what ended up happening.

[chaoman45]

What I tend to like about "open" forums is that they remain uncensored, even if it gets a bit rough in a thread. I haven't the seniority some other members here have, so I cannot adequately speak about whether or not the mod squad is right. Sounds like I missed something big; lol, who links other members to masturbation on a Scout forum?

 

These forums are useful for addressing serious issues, as well as giving advice. Hell, there are suspicions that the old SE in my council cooked the books also, so it's interesting to read input. Similarly, Scouters at the unit level have to deal with National's calls, even if we do not agree with them. Just look at the "popcorn and BSA policy" thread. I've never had this happen to me, but at least I can figure out what to do IF it happens.

[desertrat77]

Overall, I'm fine with the mods. Sure, in the course of some of these threads, folks get steamed and type things that may be a bit over the line. Others get wire brushed by another forum member, rabbits get chased, dead horses get deader, but that's okay.

 

Better choppy seas now and again, and letting the ship right itself, than the heavy-handed editing that happens elsewhere, as NJCubScouter accurately observed.

 

 

 

 

[sailingpj]

Well this seems like a good time to remind everyone that youths do drop in on these forums from time to time. Some of us even stay a while.

 

I personally don't see any problems with any of the mods. I have yet to see any of them do anything that crosses any line. It is rare to have mods that are willing to talk to people about why they decided to moderate something. So I give them two thumbs up, 20 stars, and I feel the mods deserve the highest of fives.

 

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[fred8033]

I've been reading this thread, but fairly silent as I've been traveling without a good keyboard. ... I'm in this Forum for strong, good debate; to learn and to get to understand the opinions of other scouts and to hopefully share my perspective too. I fully agree with raising and debating virtually any topic.

 

In the original thread, I tried not to insult as much as to raise my main frustration. I fully believe Merlyn LeRoy / Brian Westley is not here to "participate". He's here to "manipulate". To advance his agenda. ** And *** his agenda is advanced by damaging discussion this forum. He had a chance to take a slap at scouting and he did it again. Did he have an excuse? Sure. LA times published another article. Not much new in it. Merlyn pointing out the news article was not so much about communicating yet another bad news article. It was more keeping an old worn out subject top on the posting list in this Forum.

 

Merlyn / Brian has been very prolific on this topic for 16 years: Google groups ... Newspapers ... Yahoo groups ... original news groups ... "UK" forums ... Wikipedia posts ... wordpress ... newspapers ... topica ... patheos ... Food discussion forums

[fred8033]

.(This message has been edited by fred8033)