For The Youth ONLY

[Basementdweller]

staves, spars and poles.....no problem....I have posted on craigs list a few times....

 

A contractor will email and say he has cleared land at main and elm street and to help myself....I print the email and bring it along.....bring a chain saw.....

 

Got a couple of truck loads that way.

 

 

[Peregrinator]

I agree with BadenP -- adults should focus on scoutcraft not so they can gain recognition for it but so they can deliver the best possible program to the boys in their charge.

 

However, it might not be a bad idea for the BSA to start a Rovers program. And Baden-Powell never intended for there to be an upper age limit to Rovering. That sort of program would be good for an adult who has little or no interest in being a leader, or who doesn't have a troop he can help lead, or who simply wants to improve his skills without taking time away from his troop.(This message has been edited by Peregrinator)

[SSScout]

 

I teach "Woods Tools" at IOLS. I work with one leader that has it down and runs a good weekend program. He treats the nascent SMs and ASMs as a Patrol(s) and we lead them through the requirements of the T-2-1. It is understood that they will learn the knots and lashings and animal/plant ID and fire safety and map and compass AND how to SAFELY use a knife, axe and saw. Those that have some skill and knowledge already, help those that don't.

It is understood that these adults are learning what it takes to "pass" the ranks, but not necessarily "pass" them themselves.

 

I helped another IOLS class , with a different leader, who expected that the class would "earn" the Totin' Chip in my knife and axe class. She even had the badges to award them with. I reminded her that adults COULD NOT earn and wear youth awards, and she became almost angry. I told her that if these folks followed my instruction, they would in essence have "earned" it, along with the Whittlin' Chip (part and parcel with the Totin' Chip). Should we not award that too? She was confused by that. These were Boy Scout Leaders, how could they earn a Cub Scout award? I finally convinced her not to present the T/C patch.

 

I like the idea of NOT having adults in essence in competition with the youth. If the adults are desirous of the experience and bling, there are lots of courses and classes and patches and awards to earn and be proud of on their side of the age boundary.

[BDPT00]

Present the card.

I'd really hate to see an adult wearing that ridiculous patch. Oh, did I say that?! I think it's the dumbest thing for a Scout to wear a patch that tells the world that "I'm allowed to carry a pocket knife" or "I know how to start a fire!"

I digress.

I would never award an adult a patch I wouldn't want to see at a later date somewhere on his uniform.

BDPT00

[qwazse]

Our crew held it's court of honor this week, a younger sister (age 10) asked if she could help start he campfire. I replied affirmatively saying "Far be it from me to prevent a little one from lighting a fire."

[SeattlePioneer]

I've seen plenty of examples of adults who learn effective small group leadership and personal management skills while they are BSA adult leaders.

 

I'm one of them.

[Sentinel947]

If the adult aren't getting enjoyment out of their role as mentor/advisors,something is seriously wrong with the troop or the adult.

[TAHAWK]

The age limit was imposed in 1952.

 

But there was some special deal for Explorers who were also Assistant Scoutmasters from 1959-1972. They could work on Eagle to age 21.

[Twocubdad]

I don't have a problem with giving the adults the Totin' Chip patch. They didn't "earn" it because as adults they're not eligible for it and it's not for uniform wear, even for the boys. It's just a token of the training. I also think you can make the case that for training purposes you are modeling the behavior of recognizing the Scouts.

 

Now if you have some dingy who sews it on his uniform and makes a deal out of having "earned" the patch, you probably want to question his participation on a number of levels.

[BSA24]

SSScout,

 

I would have just left her alone. You chose to battle another leader over what - her trying to be kind to others and do something fun for them?

 

In wood badge, your patrol is awarded youth awards. Why couldn't she give them the patches and explain adults dont wear it on the uniform?

 

She was just being nice and trying to make the training fun. What were you trying to do for others? Deny them something because... your outrage? She was doing service. You were serving who?

 

Guys, the kids pay no attention to what the adults have on their uniforms and don't care. Where does this dumb idea that adults are competing with youth come from?

 

The purpose of this thread was not to ask for recognition. It was to understand why adults are not trained to be first class scouts, and suggesting a patch for their blanket, chair, jacket, or keepsake box that motivates them to earn it. ITOLS is not the equivalent of first class training. And adults wouldn't be better leaders if they learned the material in various merit badges by working the badge themselves?

 

The outrage expressed here at adults receiving badges is, in my opinion, most of what is wrong with scout leaders today. Someone wants to do something fun or nice, and some jerk comes along and wants to point out how it is wrong. It's like being at a star trek convention and being told that your uniform parts are mixing episodes of the show or something.

 

Pick your battles. Remember everyone should have fun, not just the guy who likes to control others by reciting "The Rules", most of which are guidelines and not "rules."

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

Hello BSA24,

 

I think your comments are too tough.

 

Most Scouters have to struggle with which "rules" to take seriously and which rules to take as guidelines that may be dispensed with when there are good reasons.

 

We see disagreements about where that line should be drawn all the time on these forums, and in the end Scouters and leaders have to decide such things for themselves, or as committees.

 

So while I think that using the patches as recognition during IOLS was a reasonable idea --- a good idea, even, I can see where reasonable people might decide to "go by the book" on this.

 

 

[BadenP]

BSA24

 

The "real outrage,and what is wrong with some scout leaders today", are those who feel they need to earn youth awards and reliving their boy scout days all over again instead of doing their jobs as Scoutmasters, such as yourself.

 

I find your own justifications to support your position to be laughable. If you are not having fun being a scoutmaster and helping boys become leaders then maybe you should step down and join another organization where you can earn all the badges you want, since that seems to be the only motivating factor for you.

[JMHawkins]

BSA24, the "competition" that I'm worried about isn't between the youth and the adults. It's between the adults devoting time and energy to the youth program vs adults devoting time and energy to the adult program. If adults start getting ranks and awards as part of the unit - if the unit has a program for the adults as well as one for the youth - then there's a very real danger that the adults will divert a big chunk of their attention to the adult program. That means the youth program will suffer.

 

I think providing training at the district level is a fine idea, and it can even include some sort of recognition. However, there still needs to be a reasonable cap on things. Time spent in training, while valuable, is time NOT spent with the unit. I'm missing two of our troop's upcoming trips because I'm taking Woodbadge and serving as a trainer at the PTC. That's three weekends over two months doing scouting stuff not with my unit. We have enough ASMs that I can do that, but we're pretty blessed that way and a lot of units might be in a real bind.

[Tokala]

BSA24, there is nothing that says you can't pick up the chemistry merit badge pamphlet and learn the material. Not sure why getting the patch seems more important than the knowledge.

 

I have always told Scouts to get an education because it's the one thing that no one can take away from you.

[SSScout]

Back from the weekend...

 

Had to re-read my little story to understand the resulting comments. It wasn't me that was "angry " or "outraged", as seems to be the interpretation of some.

In the first course mentioned, our scoutmaster/instructor leads his patrols in various exercises to show what a Scout needs to know to ultimately earn FC. Each Patrol has elected a PL, and my instructor deals with his "Troop" thru the PLC. He "awards" small trophy ribbons to the patrols who "win" the patrol competitions. While instructing, we have competitions in knot tying,lashing a tall pole together, finding your way around a compass course. He had me teach Wood Tools as a class, and then send them out to make a "perfect" tent peg. During their free time, they could come by my axe yard and "play" with my toys to make their pegs. As they finish, we critique them and give them lots of praise for their efforts (sound familiar?). And some are better than others.

The final lowering of the flag at the end of camp (this is a saturday morn thru sunday afternoon course) is the time for cheers and awarding of "Trained" patches and cards.

 

The other course (which I have helped with more than once now) was a "Sabbath Friendly " course, Sunday morn thru monday afternoon (take a day off work!). The course leader was(is) an experienced Scouter, but her philosophy is different. She doesn't divide the folks into patrols, but treats everyone as a Tenderfoot under her Patrol Leadership. Hence, I become a Troop Instructor/guide, in essence. She does not have any competitions, but lots of practice. As I mentioned before, I like to show that the knife part of T/C is essentially the Cub Scout Whittlin' Chip, and what better way to get the Cubs interested in Boy Scouting than a couple of Scouts teaching knife safety? Which is why I asked her about awarding W/C, which she had not considered.

Evidently, she was used to presenting all the Scout patches during the course as evidence of completing the material, (along with the T/C), along with the "Trained" patch. I think I must have been the first one to question this. I wasn't angry, I just didn't think, from my previous experience and reading of the manuals, that it was appropriate. She backed off and did not present the T/C that time and I did not see the other patches presented either. Only the "Trained".