All for youth led, but how much guidance is needed...

[JMHawkins]

I honestly think its more about time management with this age group than anything.

[qwazse]

Our boys are older and still have the same issues.

Sounds like you all are on track. At the end of the weekend, tell the PL if he needs shopping done, to give your son a call next time, and you'll help get him to the store.

 

Have fun.

[CalmOne]

From my experience as a Scoutmaster, I would make four comments:

1. Troop Guide = The right kind of guidance for a patrol full of inexperienced Scouts.

2. Advice I often give to worried adults = "No Scout ever starved to death on a weekend campout."

3. Adult oversight and guidance should always be done in the most unobtrusive and low-key manner possible.

4. Relax and let them do it themselves. Otherwise, they will not learn.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

I use this basic principle beginning in our district Tiger Cub Camp, done in conjunction with the Cub Scout Day Camp.

 

I did a competition between two just formed Tiger Cub dens --- an exercise in stting up tents the boys had never seen before. (although a third tent was set up as an example they could copy).

 

The boys had to figure out what to do and how to cooperate to get it done while their parent partners looked on, only able to offer helpful advice (mostly ignored).

 

Both dens got their tents up after awhile (no rain flys), and they all piled into the tent and zipped it up to give their new den yell as best they could remember it.

 

Of course they were all as happy as could be when they got done.

 

One of my aims with this camp is to show the parents how to conduct an effective Scout program. I'd say this exercise was a good example of how to do that.

[CalmOne]

Good for you, SeattlePioneer. And if it can work with Tigers, how much more so should this be true with Boy Scouts? Parental involvement is part of the program in Cub Scouts, but they can begin to learn independence even there. Far too often, I have witnessed parents pitching tents with 11-13 year old Boy Scouts "just to help out," only to see them take over. In the end, the boy is sleeping in a tent that mommy and daddy pitched. It is hard for adults, but the best practice is to step back and let the boys do it.

[Stosh]

With all the discussion on leadership, one has to stop and wonder what that really means. Leaders lead people. A person that can't take care of themselves is going to have a very difficult time taking care of others. Their leadership potential is zip!

 

Only when the boys learn to care for their own responsibilities will they be able to take on the added task of responsibility for others.

 

Every time an adult "steals" the opportunity for a boy to learn, grow, and develop on their own, they are keeping them from becoming real leaders.

 

How much guidance? Assisting them into critical thinking, empowering them to take on responsibilities, allow them opportunities to plan ahead and think beyond the current moment are all part of this process.

 

Every adult that directs the boys, forces them to follow, not lead! Every adult that does it for the boys, teaches them that if they sit on their hands long enough someone else will pick up the slack. That is NOT leadership!

 

Every mixed age grouped patrol has the older boys doing everything for the newbies, but it isn't until the newbies become the old-hats, will they ever have the opportunity to truly lead. Leadership begins with taking care of others, the buddy system taught at the Tenderfoot rank. Everything after that should enhance that initiation. To think that a 16 year-old is going to morph into a fantastic leader automatically at that age is ridiculous. It's a process, not an event!

 

Every SM should be kicked out of their troop because the boys were having to do too much leadership on their own.

 

Every SM/adult that thinks they are there doing it for the boys, is there for all the wrong reasons.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Thank you, that's very kind.

 

 

Since you liked that example, I'll give you another.

 

At our first Tiger Cub Camp meeting Wednesday evening, the new Tiger Cubs designed and made their own Tiger Cub Den flags. One of the two dens was enterprising enough to name themselves "The American Tigers"! While they were assisted by the parent partners, it's clear from the workmanship on the flags that the boys mostly did the design of the flag themselves.

 

The Tiger Cubs made "Pie Iron Pizza" at the camp Wednesday as a snack, and roasted ears of corn Thursday evening as a snack Thursday.

 

We did hammering and nailing practice Wednesday, and then Thursday the two Tiger Cub dens competed against each other in a relay race driving nails in a board.

 

Several of the Tiger Cubs need a lot more practice with hammering and nailing. Because of that, I cancelled a craft project on building a wooden stool from a kit, which involves quite a bit of nailing. Just too much for several of those boys, and it wouldn't have been age appropriate yet.

 

Search, Discover, Share! That's the Tiger Cub motto and my aim is to show parents how they can make their Tiger Cub Programs a success when they start them up this fall.

 

 

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread --- but we start building Boy Scout in Cub Scouts as far as I'm concerned! And Boy Scout parents, too.

[advancement lady]

Our troop is a scout lead troop and I am extremely disappointed. I have two scouts, in two separate patrols, and have yet to receive a phone call from their patrol leaders about anything!!!

 

As a result ~ we have had ZERO campouts in 2012 (this includes our week long summer camp) The whole troop has just fallen apart and I do not see it continuing after 2012.

 

My son was SPL for 2011 and his ASPL is now the SPL. As an adult, I supported my son 100%, but I did have to step in from time to time to help guide him. Although he wasn't the best SPL, they camped, worked on skills, earned many badges and awards. Overall a great year! And his Eagle project pulled in every scout family except one. Our current SPL's Eagle project only had 6 scouts!?!

 

Our current SPL's mother believes a scout run troop means 100% scout. As a result, nothing good is happening. She keeps making comments like, I have told him to call!

 

Long and short of it is this ~ in my opinion, a scout run troop is 90% scout and 10% adult intervention. They are still children with little, if any, experience. It is our job to help them succeed and learn from their mistakes. Maybe a campout may not have enough food, but they are not going to starve. Don't wait for them to make the major mistakes (zero campouts). Let them learn from the small ones (short two slices of bread).

 

After the first campout was cancelled an adult should have stepped in and said "What happened?" You know the answer would have been "I don't know". This is the first year our troop misses summer camp and quality troop!

[Sentinel947]

As an SPL I never believed "Boy led" meant " no adults". Now as an ASM, I try to not lead my Scouts.

To me. Boy lead is Boys do the planning. Boys do the execution of their plans. Boys handle a majority of the discipline. (Positive Peer pressure!) Adults are to mentor, advise ,coach and be a good role model. To let them walk down the path to failure, and to help them learn from that failure. I don't intervene unless their is a safety violation. I trust the Boys to make good decisions or ask for help most of the time. Freeing up my energy to proactivly deal with the few times they make bad choices.

[qwazse]

Thanks A.L., you give us an idea of the opposite extreme.

Someone is not being coached.

And, frankly, that where the SM needs to come in. Some SPLs need more phone calls than others. Some PLCs need to meet more frequently than others.

 

Now your boys have a say in what's happening. Have they talked to the SM?

[Sentinel947]

As an SPL I never believed "Boy led" meant " no adults". Now as an ASM, I try to not lead my Scouts.

To me. Boy led is Boys do the planning. Boys do the execution of their plans. Boys handle a majority of the discipline. (Positive Peer pressure!) Adults are to mentor, advise ,coach and be a good role model. To let them walk down the path to failure, and to help them learn from that failure. I don't intervene unless there is a safety violation. I trust the Boys to make good decisions or ask for help most of the time. Freeing up my energy to proactivly deal with the few times they make bad choices.(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

[Venividi]

>Every mixed age grouped patrol has the older boys doing everything for the newbies, but it isn't until the newbies become the old-hats, will they ever have the opportunity to truly lead.

 

 

Mixed aged patrols have older boys that are teaching the "newbies" how to do things, delegating tasks to them, helping them learn by watching, and then doing.

 

 

And yes, it is when they become the "old-hats" in their patrol that they will have learned leadership skills from watching and working with the prior patrol "old-hats", and then hone them by emulating what they learned from the previous "old-hats". And then the cycle repeats - Its a wonderful thing after it gets rolling.

 

 

(If the culture of a troop is such that the older scouts in a patrol are doing everything for the younger scouts, it is time for the SM to bring it to the attention of the SPL.)

 

[Venividi]

double post

(This message has been edited by venividi)

[AlamanceScouter]

I am trying to prepare my wife to "crossover" to Boy Scouts next spring...... Lol. I am going to have her read this thread. Lots a great information and thoughts.

[BrentAllen]

We like to say "Boy run does not mean boy-run-off-the-tracks!" :-) I'll counter Josh's statement about adults not liking NSPs with: Troops that use NSPs generally do so because they don't have strong, developed Patrols who can handle brand new Scouts; the Patrols don't have the skills nor the leadership development to teach T-2-1 to the new Scouts. (I have no idea if that is true - I just threw that out as the other side of the coin)

 

We don't use NSPs because we believe Scouting is all about older boys teaching the younger boys. We like teacher to student ratios of 6 to 2, instead of 2 to 6. The whole Patrol has an interest in teaching the new Scouts.

 

Dean, from the situation in your original post, I would have assisted my son in sending a nice, short email to the PL. Something along the lines of "I am new to all this, and for this weekend's campout, I'm not sure about who is buying the food and who I'm tenting with, or if I need to bring a tent. Can you help me out?" Then see what happens. (You are also teaching your son to follow chain of command)

 

The best lessons for Scouts are when they see a NEED for something. Scouts can learn all about duty rosters, but until they have patrol members complaining about who has cooked and who has cleaned up, and "Johnny hasn't had KP all weekend!", they won't see the real NEED for one. They can learn all about knots, but until they see a NEED for a bowline or a taut-line hitch, they really won't learn them. Same thing with first aid. Use scenarios on camping trips (surprise scenarios are great) to teach first aid. Add a little fake blood and some moulage, and you have the recipe for a camping trip that will be discussed for a long time after they get home.

 

That safety net we provide is there so Scouts can learn lessons through experience and the need for them. Those lessons learned from need are much more likely to stick with them than lessons learned from just being told or instructed.