All for youth led, but how much guidance is needed...

[DeanRx]

Disclaimer at the start... my son and his buddies just bridged from WEB II a few months back, so trying to make that gear change from adult led to boy led program, however...

 

Troop meeting last night. Over 1/2 the time was devoted to Patrol time to plan the meals, etc. for this weekends advancement camp. My son is in a new boys patrol (all newly minted Boy Scouts with scout rank) and the PL / APL are newly minted 1st class scouts... good guys, but only about 1 to 1.5 years older than my son.

 

So, they go have their planning time, and the meeting wraps up. I ask my son (and PL who is his buddy), So you got the menu figured out? YUP!

 

So, who's gonna do the food buy? SILENCE - uhh, don't know...

 

Did you figure out how many tents you need for the patrol and who is sleeping with who? SILENCE - uhh, didn't really talk about that...

 

Now, I understand this is part of the learning curve for these boys, both my son as a newbie boy scout and his PL in his 1st PL role.

 

However, I am a bit frustrated by the fact that there was no patrol advisor with them at the breakout meeting to kind of 'guide' the discussion so they made sure to talk about the essential items that need to be covered in planning a campout.

 

I suggested to one of the other dads, maybe we should come up with a check-sheet or form they could use in the future as a template when planning the patrol campout tasks, so they don't leave out a mission critical element.

 

I am willing to help craft such document, but don't want to be stepping on anyone's toes.

 

I'm good friends with the SM. He was my ACM for 3 years when I was CM for our feeder pack. I don't want to tell him how to do his job, but I am a little peturbed that the "new boys" seem to be left twisting in the wind on their first troop campout and were only given the guidance of their PL and APL, both of whom crossed from WEB II just a year prior to those they are charged with leading.

 

How you would handle the situation? Do I say / do anything at all? or do I let them 'learn' by struggle and maybe failure as it may mean a scout has a bad 1st campout impression with the troop because of poor planning?

[Eagle732]

In my troop the boys use a camping trip planning form that shows patrol members attending the trip, menu, duty roster, grubmaster, tent and buddies. The PL has to get the SPL and SM to sign off after completion. They make 2 copies, one stays with the PL and one goes to the SPL. Send me a PM with your email and I'll send it to you.

 

"A plans just an idea unless it's in writing"

[eolesen]

Welcome to the biggest problem with " new boy patrols" and why we don't use them....

 

The only way I've seen a NBP really work is to have an experienced Scout (Star or Life) be their PL or to have a TG assigned to oversee the inexperienced PL.

 

The flipside of this is that they while might have a lousy time, they will probably think twice for the next campout, provided half of them don't quit over a bad experience...

 

Planning form is a good idea. There are dozens available on the web -- just google "campout planning form"

 

http://www.usscouts.org/netresources/forms/gencampoutprep.pdf(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

[Eagledad]

Hi Dean

 

I understand your frustration and concern because we all have the t-shirt. All these phrases keep running through my mind as I read your post. Teach for success, prepare for failure. You dont know what you dont know. Dont do for a scout what he can do for himself, but does he know what he can do for himself?.

 

Truth of the matter is the adults have to learn more about boy run twice as fast because the adult role of knowing how to stand back is harder. Another phrase I like to throw out to adults is "let the scouts struggle almost up to the point where they dont enjoy scouting anymore, than pull back a little to where it is fun". Push yourself to find their limits. Then you know for the next time.

 

To be honest, I think you are getting close to that limit because its one thing for one scout to forget the food, but all of them? Then there will be the battle of who is going to cook and who is going to clean. It goes on and on. They need the struggle, but they need some kind of light at the end of the tunnel as well. You will have to judge. Have courage, don't be afraid because they will also surprise you.

 

Your post points out why its a lot easier with older scouts in the patrol. But you dont have that, so you (the adults) are going to have to train the scouts to succeed. In that, you need to learn how to give them just enough to move two steps forward so that they only go back one step in their struggle. Give them an example of a menu and roster, step back and watch them use them. Give them some examples of menus ideas from the internet, step back and see if they get creative the next time.

 

Little steps, not big ones. Also, when you give them and example, dont stand around and watch to see how it goes, come back later and ask what happen. Laugh at their calamity, ask a couple of questions to get them back on track. You don't have to wait around for the answers, it may take a little while. They only needed the blessing that going backwards was OK, and going forward hurts less.

 

You are trying to push them just out of their comfort zone because that is where they learn, but not so far that they shut down and refuse to learn. I ask new adult leaders "can you expect a 12 year old SPL to lead like a 16 year old?". Be realistic and challenge them to grow around their maturity and experience, not yours.

 

Be careful about giving them examples of progress, you want them to move forward with their vision, not yours. I once watched a couple older scouts suggest awarding beads like Wood Badge to show a level of JLT in the troop. Then I watched an adult kill that idea by dumping his own idea of the sytle and color of beads. He stole their vision and their fun was gone. I never head about it again.

 

Also, go to the scout office and look at the Patrol Leaders Handbook, I think that has an example of a aptrol camp roster and menu. It has guidelines to running a meeting and maybe even how to follow a meeting agenda. Its a lot easier to sit down with the patrol and learn together than stand there above them to read, teach, tell, lecture or whatever they call it from the adult. Imagine a boy feeling equal with the adult. Kind of makes them feel adult, don't it?

 

The disadvantage of same age patrol is that most of the growth will have to come from adults instead of the older scout role models. That is much much harder. But dont get frustrated by the slow pace. Instead figure out how to keep the growth going with as little adult intervention as possible. Get help from the older scouts and SPL and use the handbooks.

 

Never be discouraged of their struggles in front of them, instead act as if you expected it and cheer them on for what they are learning from the experience. And make sure you learn something from their experience as well so that you are a better boy run adult leader the next time because there will be a next time. Remember your goal is for them to grow so that they could function normally if the adults never showed up. They need to practice and get use to that independence. They need to practice trusting that you trust them. It will be hard because they will screw up a lot. But how you handle their screw ups is how they will figure out if the troop is a safe place to ask for help. Is it safe to screw up tolearn in your troop? How much is too much is the balance you have to learn in encouraging them to grow.

 

Boy run is harder for the adults, but its very rewarding. Eventually you will start to get the hang of it and you will love and respect the power of this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Stosh]

A TG would go a long way in assisting with this situation. I'm not ready to call it a problem.

 

One of the major obstacles to a boy-led program is the ability of the adults to accept failure. When the boys screw up, it reflects bad on the adults and "their" program goals. Scouters who don't like pure NSP's are generally unable to accept the very strong possibility that for a while these boys are going to struggle. They don't know the program, they don't know the traditions, and they don't know what the heck is going on. A good TG can walk them through their initial sticker shock of the BSA program. Had the PL/APL been picked because they could lead, and not because they held a rank and needed a POR, maybe things would be a bit easier with more planning and evaluation by the adults and not putting unqualified boys into difficult situations. That in itself goes a long way towards a successful event.

 

I found that effective After Activity Reviews(AAR) go a long way to assist the boys in resolving the problems that arise. At these AAR's, the SM/TG/Patrol Adviser can assist the boys with suggestions for next time. This might be the time to suggest the check off lists, storing menus that were good, itemizing gear, etc. Some of the best learning experiences have been in evaluating failures. Too often, failures end in screaming and shouting and little is focused on making sure the boys have an opportunity to learn and grow.

 

Stosh

[Lisabob]

Something to keep in mind: just because YOUR boy doesn't know the answers to those questions, doesn't mean the questions have not been answered within the patrol. It may be that because HE isn't the one buying the food, he didn't pay attention to who will buy it. It happens.

 

About the tents, it could be that this is being taken care of by the patrol or troop Quartermaster, or by the PL. While we might see a different way of handling it, it might be that the troop has a process in place for ensuring that there are enough tents. And who tents with whom is easy to figure out on the spot, if necessary. So unless they're backpacking and need to break up the gear so as not to overload any one scout, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the tent assignments.

 

Ask yourself, what's the worst that can happen, and can you live with that?

 

(Here, the worst case scenario is that nobody buys food and they bring no tents.)

 

Well, ok. It is pretty unlikely that they'll go hungry all weekend. Either they'll be the mealtime guests of other patrols for the weekend, or some adult leader on the trip will take a couple of them on an unplanned food run to the nearest grocery store, or they'll get to eat PB & J for a couple of days, or...something. For tents, either they'll get an early start on learning to sleep w/o a tent (might become a hallmark of their patrol, who knows!), or some other patrols will triple up and free up a couple of tents for these new guys to use. And they'll have a bit of a laugh and learn for next time.

[Eagledad]

>>Scouters who don't like pure NSP's are generally unable to accept the very strong possibility that for a while these boys are going to struggle.

[EagleBeaver]

"How you would handle the situation?" - I'd talk to the scoutmaster.

 

If I were the scoutmaster of that troop, I'd appreciate you as a parent giving me a call to tell me what you noticed and ask me how I'd like you to support your scout, his patrol, and troop.

If I'm not aware that patrol X is failing miserably in planning for their campout, I can get the SPL to address that through the PL. But, chances are good that I'm monitoring the situation and already have a plan under way to ensure they get it done.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Your Scoutmaster shouldn't be offended at discussing program weaknesses and how to deal with them.

 

He should be glad that weaknesses are identified. He should make it a priority to find ways to overcome the weaknesses, whether they are the methods you propose or different ones.

 

Some degree of failure can be educational. Too much will simply drive boys out of the program.

 

The Trail To First Class is a progression of skills, so new Scouts aren't expected to be experienced campers. They need guidance on how to do a camping trip successfully and in learning the skills.

 

So I'd talk to the Scoutmaster and work with him on identifying how to deal with these issues.

 

I hope you let us know how that works in the days and weeks to come. I'd like to hear how this patrol progresses in developing camping skills.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Dean, instead of leaving the boys "twisting in the wind", or taking over their Patrol planning, did you suggest to the PL (who at 1-1.5 years older has been on at least one or two Troop campouts before) that he might want to have a chat with his APL, and his Patrol about the unresolved items?

 

Instead of telling the SM how to do his job, how about simply asking him about the possibility of a Troop Guide for the NSP.

[JMHawkins]

I think ScoutNut has the right idea. Work through the youth leaders in the troop. If there's an SPL or a PL in a different patrol who's a good leader, let them know the new PL might need some coaching (or let the SM know and let him let the other youth leader's know). I would NOT suggest a TG for the NSP since they already have a PL. Adding a TG would kinda pull the rug out from under the new PL who needs a chance to learn along with everyone else. Another PL or an SPL who helps out is a different matter.

 

Barry also mentioned laughter. I thinks that important too (though make sure the scouts think you're laughing with them more than at them). It helps to let them know failure is not a disaster. Depending on what sort of life they've had up untill know, some of them may not be used to the idea of failing. Letting them know they are disgraced by a screwup is a good idea. We had a couple of scouts get mild hypothermia on their second campout because they weren't good about staying dry amid a torrential downpour ("where is your rain gear?" "I dunno..."). Next meeting I shook my head in mock sadness and told them when I was a scout, I made it to my third campout before getting hypothermia... Since then, they've camped out in about the worst weather Western Washington has to offer, and done great.

[bnelon44]

The short story is to realize that they start out with a lot of high enthusiasm and no skills, they progress slowly in learning the skills. The key is to get them trained in camping skills right away so they can keep going on more and better outings and go on a lot of outings right away, that keeps the enthusiasm going. The Scouts want to go out and camp, they don't want to sit in boring meetings.

 

As to who does the training? It is always best if an older Scout does the training and eventually you get into the habit of training the Patrol Leaders so they can pass along camping and woodcraft skills to their patrols.

 

Keep the interpatrol competitions going, that keeps them encouraged to learn more.

 

A guide to this approach is here:

http://bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod/MatchingLeadershipStylestotheNeedsofScouts.pdf'>http://bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod/MatchingLeadershipStylestotheNeedsofScouts.pdf

 

More information is here:

http://bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod/

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[Lisabob]

Hang on, if I'm SM in this troop I am not sure I want the parents of new scouts accosting PLs with "advice." Especially not the younger PLs, who might not have much savvy in deflecting well-meaning but over-zealous adults (not saying Dean is one of those, but we all see them from time to time).

 

I'd far rather that the parents of new scouts come to ME or some designated ADULT leader with their concerns, questions, and observations, than going to their son's PL. Let the PL do his job and lead his patrol - let adults deal with the parents.

 

But, Dean, your SON might double check with his PL on this.

 

 

 

 

 

[DeanRx]

Update - well the PL took on the patrol food buy himself. Doubt he will make the mistake of not discussing this with the patrol in the future unless he always wants to be the one stuck buying the food.

 

Tent issue is a learning curve thing to me. 8 boys in the patrol going and myself and another adult each have an extra 3 man dome with us. Doubt they'll need it, but if they all show up without tents, they can cram 4 into a 3man and the lesson will be learned, I guess.

 

I think I might approach the SM about a patrol advisor for the NSP. These boys are well versed and are all great campers, they are just all about 12 y/o and even if tehy KNOW it, they have a hard time remembering it unless it has to do with Angry Birds or how to level up on their favorite video game.

 

They did a GREAT job of menu selection, task assignments for the kitchen adn talking about what Tenderfoot requirements they want to get done on the campout. They totally FORGOT to discuss WHO would buy the food and WHO was bringing tents and who was sleeping with whom.

 

I honestly think its more about time management with this age group than anything. They get 45 minutes in a breakout session to plan their patrol tasks, and they spend the 1st 20 minutes planning the 1st breakfast for Saturday morning! Now, that is important, but they have no clue they just spent half their meeting time rehashing a single meal! That will come in time... maybe an advisor would help them realize the number of items they need to get through to successfully plan a campout in the time allotted.

 

Thanks for the feeedback, and I'll report back after the weekend adventure!!

 

FWIW - I like the NSP because it keeps the boys who were together as cubs together for the 1st part of Boy Scouts. I think this is a good idea for retention. Our Troop has about 8 patrols, so the alternative is to have each new ascout go to a patrol that they may or may not know anybody in... not a fun start IMHO.

 

The down side is, you might not have senior scouts ready / willing to take all the newbies as their PL. The patrol right now is good, because they all KNOW their PL - he was in cubs with them.

 

The strength is also the weakness in having a boy 1 year older than you be your PL when you are a clueless newbie.

[shortridge]

"They get 45 minutes in a breakout session to plan their patrol tasks, and they spend the 1st 20 minutes planning the 1st breakfast for Saturday morning! "

 

The great thing about patrols is they exist outside of troop meetings. If the PL realizes there's an issue, he can call individual boys or just call a patrol meeting, without waiting until the next troop night. If a patrol needs more time to plan, it can hold an extra midweek or weekend meeting. Problem solved, independence enhanced.