Anti Scout Law type of behavior ?

[Scoutfish]

You ever just see, read or observe something that just totally changes the way you feel about something?

 

Maybe not instantly, but it could take a few hours, a few days, weeks or even a month or year.

 

And it's not a life changing time to repent on you sould type of change, just a minor change in how you do something or the rational behind what you do/ did.

 

Okay here's what did it for me:

 

"I don't care for singing for lost stuff, either. Doesnt' seem Scoutlike to me. Courtesy dictates that I cheerfully return the things I find to their owners." - Twocubdad

 

Twocubdad is right too. As a scout ( scouter in my case) isn';t it part of my promise to help other people at all times to hand over - without any expectation of service, song, reward, etc... any property I find that belongs to somebody else?

 

NOw, I myself was all about the singing for lost stuff. Of course, we did it in a good natured fun way, and as to date, the scouts actually enjoy the spot light. They get to ham it up and try to top each other with the hammy singing skills.

 

But that isn't the point is it? So what if they are all okay with it ...so far. That isn't what the scout law or oath says.

 

It doesn't say I will help other people at all times unless I get a chance to rub it in or get a chance to ham it up and goof off.

 

No, not a federal offene on our part and I don't really expect anybody to go Charles Manson on us because he had to sing for a hat or book 20 years ago.

 

What I am getting at is the Principal of it. In principal, we should enjoy the good feeling we get from reuniting somebody with their lost or misplaced property.

 

It's our " Do a good turn daily" . It's our KIND , COURTEOUS , LOYAL ( to each other) , HELPFUL , FRIENDLY , and keeping with " To help other people at all times..."

 

 

So, in my case, I saw what Twocubdad wrote and it didn't really stand out or mean much to to at the time. But I have mulled it over and the thought just kept popping back in my head over and over. The fact the idea wouldn't go away says something in itself.

 

So today I realized that making a scout sing for stuff ( although not necessarily a bad or evil act ) is indeed opposite of what we promise to do time after time again.

 

Okay, I said my piece.

 

You can agree or disagree...I am okay with that. Just had to state my feelings on this.

 

 

Mark

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

Agreed.

And the comments are interesting and thoughtful.

 

[moosetracker]

Although I agree, and very open minded of you to think it over and come back and post your change of mind.. If your scouts are having so much fun with the singing, you might have to put on your thinking cap and figure out a different reason for them to show off their talents..

 

Maybe a cookoff every now and then and either the looser (or maybe winner) gets to sing..

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally I think you go too far in emphasizing helping other people.

 

If Scouts lose equipment, they aren't being responsible. They aren't being TRUSTWORTHY.

 

A gentle reminder of that failing seems reasonable and appropriate when someone loses gear. Singing a goofy song because someone else bailed you out because you weren't being responsible seems reasonable.

 

In other circumstances, losing gear could have fatal consequences. Getting in the habit of paying attention to such things is valuable.

 

It's certainly a habit with which I still have to struggle all too often.

 

So I don't have a problem with it.

[Eamonn]

Scoutfish,

For the record when it comes to this singing thing, I agree with you.

But..

I do worry a little that some of us? All of us? Or maybe just me?

Run the risk of maybe "Over thinking". Some of this stuff.

Ea.

 

 

[FScouter]

I do agree with Eamonn when he opines that some of us may overthink this stuff. Though, it is nice to see someone (Scoutfish) cogitate and develop and refine a view. Considering alternative viewpoints is a good thing, and such thinking is not a bad thing.

 

Overthinking works both ways too. Thinking up new ways to reiterate a point, a new argument supporting one's point of view - that can be overthinking as well.

 

So at the risk of "overthinking" - "trustworthy" doesn't seem to much relate to keeping track of one's belongings. As the Scout is taught through his handbook: "A Scout is trustworthy. A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him."

 

If "teapot" songs help a boy become a better person and teach life lessons, well.... and if not... and a simple "I found your stuff Dude" then how about "thanks for finding that Bud... I owe you one", and good thoughts of how that worked out.

 

Or, "I'm a little idiot short and fat ..."

 

Overthinking here ... what's really the best approach?

[Scoutfish]

Well, my line of thought is this:

 

A drop in the bucket.

 

One their own, each drop means nothing, but after a while, the bucket is full and flows obver.

 

Or maybe we can rationalize tossing a single cigarette butt on the ground because it is only one butt. One butt won't make a difference, right?

 

But if everybody threw just one butt on the ground, the ground would be covered.

 

Okay, maybe this isn't teh analogy I am looking for.

 

Maybe it's dominoes or the " give an inch - take a mile.

 

Anyways, where does it start and where does it end?

 

First we decide to shock a scout into remembering or not forgetting ( depending on how you look at it) stuff.

 

Then we decide on another thing that makes the scouts more responcible or better learned.

 

NOw how far do we go?

 

Soon you have scout failing EBOR's for not having a handbook or SM's sabotauging Eagle projects.

 

And I'm not saying that one day the scout has to sing and the next the committee decides to give a 4 page written exam at a BOR.

 

But where do you draw the line? At what point do you say it's okay to do this, but not that?

 

And as the scouter who decides that a scout learns best by embarassment...do you even realize when you do oneday cross the line?

 

Maybe this is the same line of thinking that causes DE's and councils to behave the way they do in Basement's council.

 

Maybe they started out with a simple little miniscule idea that "helped" the scouts.

 

Maybe they decide to help the district or council too?

 

It starts somewhere.

 

 

So, it's not the actual singing, mind you. It's that we decide to do something that doesn't follow with the oath and spirit of scouting.

 

A scout is trustworthy.

 

So are scouters.

 

Maybe it means that we are entrusted to give people their belongings back when we find them.

 

" Hey man, I found your scout handbook by the firepit after you left the meeting last week. Might want to keep a closer eye on it" works just as well as :

 

"Hey man, I found your scout handbook by the firepit after you left the meeting last week and now you have to do something embarassing to get it back."

 

So either way, you give it back and scout knows he should remember next time, but in one case, you add embarassment to the scouts day.

 

I really don't think this fits into the scout law.

 

What I wonder about is will you, I, us realize when we take it a step further, and a step further than that, and then further than that.

 

Next thing you know....we will be " tsk, tsk, tsking" scouts and scouters who won't allow us to give FOS presentations at Eagle Ceremonies.

 

I'm just saying, It all starts somewhere. We justify this, we justify that...one day we think any and everything we do is okay.

[Twocubdad]

Thank you, 'fish. I take this as a compliment.

 

Of course, there is nothing which says after returning the item, especially as a Scout leader, I can't take the opportunity to discuss the cause of the lost item with the Scout. That discussion would depend on the situation -- is it a chronic problem, is the Scout generally irresponsible with his gear or did he simply misplace it?

 

SP, I do get the idea that the person who lost the item needs to fix their behavior, but to me this is one of those things which is more about ME doing what I should and not about the other fellow.

[JMHawkins]

Good on you, Scoutfish. I always thought the singing for lost stuff thing was unscoutlike too.

 

There's a line we all have to walk in the helping department. A Scout(er) is helpful, but if we're so helpful that we do everything for the scouts, they never learn. Being adults with more experience and skills, it's easy for us to "help" too much. I think the advice to "never do something for a scout that he can do for himself" is good.

 

But returning lost stuff? That's not doing something for the scout he can't do for himself, that's just being a friend, a good neighbor. Singing to get back lost stuff, I'm pretty dubious that it helps kids learn to look after their gear. If it does, it does so by embarrassing them, which is maybe not the best tool to pull out of the tool chest.

 

Want them to learn to keep track of their gear? Go on a week long, 50-miler. They'll learn to look after stuff when the next resupply is 40 miles and five days away.

[Beavah]

Yah, I too am not fond of singing.

 

I am, however, fond of balance. I don't think just pickin' up after kids is all that Helpful.

 

Helping other people at all times does not always mean doin' things for them. Particularly young fellows who are still learning.

 

The "drop in the bucket" thing goes the other way, too, eh? Pick up this thing for them, pick up that thing for them, help 'em with this...

 

Pretty soon, we have threads about 11-year-olds who can't tie their own shoes, because everyone has been so Helpful and Friendly. Oh, wait, we did just have a thread about lads who can't tie their own shoes.

 

A lot of teaching kids is about accelerating learning artificially. Children eventually would learn lessons from life. Over time, losing lots of stuff that nobody else happened to pick up for them is it's own lesson. But doin' it that way is a slow and muddled process. So instead, we adults do artificial things to 'em to help 'em learn important lessons faster. We make 'em go to school. We make 'em take tests (when was the last time most of us took a test?). We create artificial consequences (goin' to bed without supper, "time outs", whatever) to call attention to their behavior. Nobody sends adults to bed without supper.

 

All of those things - creating an artificial world for kids where the feedback is more rapid and direct than it would ordinarily be in real life - is how we are helpful to kids. It helps 'em learn lessons and develop good habits more quickly.

 

To my mind, singing is just an attempt to do that. So is TwoCubDad's notion of lecturing 'em / "having a discussion". The lecture will work for some kids, but not others. Depends on how responsible the lad is to begin with, what the parents are like, and how good da scouter's relationship is with the boy. Personally, I'm not hugely fond of "talks" for this kind of simple behavior stuff. I think the boys learn better with more ordinary consequences, and I like to save my "talks" for other things.

 

My problem with da singing thing is that it's usually too remote from da behavior to be good feedback, and that it's too big a consequence for shy kids and too little a consequence for the jokers. So it isn't particularly helpful in any way. But I imagine some units make it work for some boys.

 

A better consequence to my mind is that if I return an item, that boy has to be the last one out of camp for the next two times, so that he "sweeps" camp for things that other people have forgotten. It's a natural "give back to the group" sort of consequence which also helps him develop the habit of lookin' around for gear before leavin'.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

See, I'm not saying we become babysiters either.

 

If a particular scout constantly keeps forgetting his book, shoes, glasses, etc... then we don't just keep giving it back words unspoken.. But if a scout who has been in the troop for years forgets one thing one time...are we really doing anything by lumping him in with everybody else?

 

Point is, it's still our vow to help other people at all times. There isn't a "Except when.." disclaimer at the end of that.

 

 

Now take it a step further. How many times has the leadership forgotten to bring something to a committee meeting or literature to pass out? How about forgetting to bring consent forms or blue cards or patches that are handed out at meetings?

 

Do we make the leader sing becuase he forgot something?

 

It goes both ways.

 

And really, it's not even about the singing. It's about us being willing to return something to it's owner without anything expected back.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

"Struggle Session"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

 

 

(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)

[qwazse]

Really CC? Struggle sessions vs. singing?

 

It's time for a word from the "A song from every boy and a big shiny brass whistle for every lifeguard" camp.

 

In a related thread, I've already discussed how leaving your stuff behind is a heinous offense to your troop, your country, and your momma. Won't go there again.

 

Let's consider the law of salvage. 'Fish rescues a boy's imperiled vessel. He has rights to a salvage fee. (Any of you who've actually had someone recover your boat after a flood or storm should know this.) By rights, he can claim recompense proportionate to the value of the property recovered plus his time and effort in recovery. But, he's a scout, so instead he asks for nothing other than a song!

 

Why? Because cheerful thrifty and friendly are more fun than "here's your knife kid, you owe me one."

 

Later on when the boy's in front of a salvor bartering for his boat, he might be able to knock down the fee a little by replying, "I'm short on cash, but I know this really cool song that I learned for occasions just like these!"

 

And yes, as an adult I had to sing for my gear. I did it loudly, proudly, and somewhat in tune. (They haven't asked me to sing since. ) I was greatful to burn the calories and not lose weight from my wallet.

 

In short, if it's not fun (for everyone including the scout), stop it. Otherwise, carry on.

 

But please don't delude yourself into thinking you're adhering more tightly to the twelve points by not calling out for a song from myself or that slacker scout!

[packsaddle]

C'mon, admit it Scoutfish. You're a communist, aren't you?

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I reckon "struggle session" is just a few parsecs over the top, Callooh Callay.

 

I have a dream that one day we can have a discussion about a kid's youth program without resorting to accusin' each other of bullying, abuse, hazing, torture, reckless endangerment, Maoist fanaticism or crimes against humanity.

 

Yes, I have a dream!