Pushups

[Beavah]

Yah, rdclements, I think yeh would make a better argument if yeh talked about kids rather than throwin' around legal nonsense, eh? Legal nonsense is just being dishonest with people, and a Scout should be trustworthy, eh? We shouldn't be dishonest to make our point.

 

Same with throwin' around terms like "abuse" and "bullying", eh? That's not what either of those terms really mean, and since bullying is now a matter of statute in many states, what you are describing as bullying is very clearly not bullying. It is also very clearly not corporal punishment. Honestly, you accusing an adult of using corporal punishment carries far more legal risk to you than havin' a kid do pushups. That can land yeh in a lawsuit pretty quickly, eh? So if legal risk is what you are worried about, yeh would be advised to be more circumspect.

 

Let's try to keep discussions of what are ordinary choices in the realm of ordinary choices, eh? There are lots of good arguments for not havin' kids do pushups that are based on what works and what is best for the kids, without torturing definitions or makin' up stuff about the law.

 

Let's also let this thread go back to that, eh, and move any other discussion of law or expansive language to another thread.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[rdclements]

Beavah,

 

I'm not throwing around anything, just offering an opinion where it was asked for. Legal definitions aside, I believe that forcing an activity as punishment is inappropriate.

 

On the other hand, I am not sure that I understand your comment. Did you intend to suggest that I am being dishonest?

[Beavah]

I don't think yeh are being deliberately dishonest, rdclements. Just inaccurate. Now, havin' learned that yeh were inaccurate, if yeh continue to tell other people that this sort of thing is a legal issue, that would be dishonest. I do know some district scouters like that, eh? They do a lot of damage before they get removed.

 

I fully admit this is a pet peeve of mine. Folks in da legal profession get a bad enough reputation for things they do that are accurate, eh? It's discouragin' to have folks heap on a load of stuff that isn't accurate. Lawsuits over kids doin' a few pushups is the sort of thing that merits public ridicule and is likely to show up on Fox News.

 

Beavah

 

[rdclements]

Yeah, I can understand how you would get tired of lay people offering legal advice. That's not my intent and I tried to offer that disclaimer in my earlier post. It seems that in some circumstances, some legal pros consider this a legal issue. That's why I posted the links to the sources.

 

I've seen the impact of scout leaders who want their troop to be run like Paris Island circa 1967. I do not believe that I can be convinced that any type of physical punishment, regardless of the creative rhetoric used in describing it, is appropriate in a youth program.

 

Good leaders find a better way to correct behavior and motivate future compliance while respecting the dignity of the person involved.

 

[Oak Tree]

We don't do anything like this. I don't think that this is corporal punishment, and I don't think that it is bullying, but it's still something that we wouldn't do, just because it doesn't feel right to me.

 

Any punishment involves something that the recipient doesn't like. Sometimes it might involve loss of privileges. Could be a sort of "time out". Sometimes it's possible to have the consequence clearly fit the misbehavior (e.g., misuse of a knife results in loss of a knife.) Sometimes it's not clear what the direct "consequence" would be. Coming and sitting with an adult might be a punishment. Loss of permission to go to the trading post. It's going to depend on where you are and what the activities are and what adults you have available.

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

"Does your troop "give pushups" or make Scouts "run around the building" for disciplinary issues?"

 

Why would a Boy Scout Troop want to act like a high school sports team?

[Stosh]

What is the lesson being taught.

 

1) The adults are running the show. Leadership for youth is an illusion.

2) The adults are allowing bullying from the pet scouts. You'll need to suck up to the SM if you ever want to be an SPL and boss others around and make them do pushups.

3) It's time to move on to a troop that teaches servant leadership, cooperation, and where you will learn to do more than run around the building and do pushups.

 

Stosh

[FScouter]

Discipline is making right a wrong, repairing the damage, a time-out, a lost privilege, sending the kid home.

"Drop and give me 20" is an exercise of power and control forced on a kid.

[qwazse]

Discipline is making right a wrong, repairing the damage, a time-out, a lost privilege, sending the kid home.

 

No, discipline is the process of developing the ability to make a good choice. You are told when a bad choice was made, asked to make a good one, and failing that, you perform some productive act that helps you order yourself civily.

 

Time-out, IMHO, is a form of solitary confinement. It's saying "You're not allowed to be one of us. You are a pariah. A blemish on our precious order."

 

Push-ups or laps, may convey just the opposite. "Your one of us, but it's clear you're bucking the system. So, let's give you something constructive to work on while you deal with your hang-up."

 

And if power and control forced on a kid is what you're against, why make them sit through a litany of announcements and those scoutmaster minutes that are always more than 60 seconds?

[Scoutfish]

We do not dole out physical punishment as a rule, but there could be exceptions that I think most would agree with:

 

If scouts do not do a good job of policing the campsite, we make them walk the campsite again. Yeah, it's physical, but not close to pushups which as listed above was stricty a physical punishment.

 

I'm not keen on the idea of causing physical exhaustion or pain as a punishment

 

Sure the swim test is pretty demanding, but the scout has the option to not take iot and it wasn't used as discipline.

 

At summercamp last week, one of the moms left a coller full of gatoraids and fruit drinks. This was a great big deal for the scouts since we only provide a 5 gallon water cooler of ice water. So after one full day of these drinks, the SM, AC, and myself started noticing empty or half empty bottles all over camp. Some where on the ground near tents, some were left on tables under the dining shelter, some were around the bath house.........wherever the scout was at when they finished the drink.

 

SM warned them that if bottle were not picked up, they would have the coller taken away. He even let it slide one time when he shouldn't have after warning them.

 

Next day, SM had SPL take coler and lock it in scout trailer.

 

No pushups, no running laps, jogging or sit ups.

 

Just lose of priveledge directly related to incident.

 

 

When our campsit inspection was 99% due to a bottle on the ground, SM just made all scouts form a line and walk through camp again.

 

And to be clear, that wsn't for inspection score since that was the highest score all week. That was because it ws one of the same bottles the scouts had been warned about - bought at trading post, taken back to campsite and tosed on ground when empty.

 

Actually, I do not personally believe it was tossed. I think scout set it down when emptied while doing something and then : "out of sight, out of mnind" .. they just forgot about it.

 

 

Still, no push ups, no running/jogging, no sit ups, etc.....

 

I think excersise is grat and all scouts should do it - just never as a punishment! PERIOD!

[Eagledad]

Yah well the objective is to get the scout to realize his own mistake and voluntarily change. There are as many ways to guide a scout to see the bulb come on as there are people in the world. That includes physical exercise.

 

I once took four excited giggly new scouts on a midnight hike for an hour on the first night of summer camp. Oh sure they knew they were in trouble when they were asked half way through the hike if they understood what parts of the scout law needed a little practice. Or maybe they didn't we also looked at stars, watched critters and just talked about the fun stuff we were going to do camp that week. I think there was a little bonding there too, but it was pretty late. Selfishly, I also wanted to wear the boys down a little and let the rest of troop sleep.

 

I know I know, I'm just a big bully, I admit it. Even worse, I have no regrets and I will do again under the same circumstances PERIOD! LOL

 

You guys crack me up.

 

I love this scouting.

 

Barry

[JMHawkins]

I've been known to tell my son to run down to the park and back on occasion when he's been sitting inside all day and starts getting obnoxious from pent up energy. After burning off some energy, he's much more civilized. Usually I only tell him to do that after he's declined a couple of invitations to "go outside and play" and continued down the spiral. He's starting to mature though and self-manage better. The point of course was never to punish him, but to get him to reset his attitude.

 

With scouts? Never done that, but they usually are plenty active anyway.

 

 

[drmbear]

Who's handing out this "punishment"? If it is an adult, SM or ASM, then I think it has absolutely no place in Scouting. Even to have adults establishing the policy is a problem, in my opinion. Now if the Scouts thought it was a good idea and had a way of handing out the punishement, then so be it, but I kinda believe that SPL wouldn't be around very long.

[BSA24]

Sometimes a boy needs to be pulled aside and cooled down.

 

Sometimes I need to ask myself what I did to bore them so bad they wanted to do something else.

 

I don't punish them. I just grind through it and use the scout sign as long as it takes.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[jdsmerud]

During my time in the Marine Corps, push-ups, etc. were refered to as incentive training when used as a disiplinary tool, and was only tolerated in the recruit training enviroment. Outside that enviroment it was considered hazing, but if the leader involved executed the push-ups, etc. with the Marines it was considered acceptable. If the Troop decides that they will do push-ups with their leader for whatever reason, like each point off a campsite inspection, then I don't see an issue with this. If the leader is singling out an individual for this then it is not acceptable.