Scout Sign vs Cub Sign (for Adult Leaders)

[gibsoncrg]

Howdy all - I'm brand new to Cub Scouting, just signed up my son as a new Tiger Cub, and I volunteered as an assistant den leader for his den. I went to my first District Roundtable meeting, and I did a couple of things that seemed to run counter to the rest of the folks, and some googling for what was right (or at least the norm) led me to these forums! So with that intro, let me get to the questions:

 

1) when asking for order, the adult (Boy Scout) leaders held up the Boy Scout Sign. Since I'm a *Cub Scout* leader, I held up the Cub Scout Sign. Most (all?) of the other adult leaders (also Boy Scout leaders) held up the Boy Scout Sign. So, it got me to thinking, as a Cub Scout leader, when attending a District Roundtable, would it be more "normal" to respond to the call for order with the Boy Scout or Cub Scout sign? I know, I know - it seems minor - and I'm not a crazed stickler, but I don't have enough sense of the community yet to know if there's a norm - or if it even matters! For what it's worth, no one laughed or kicked me out, but I'm just curious.

 

2) during the Flag Ceremony, when saluting the flag, I held my right hand over my heart as I was in civilian clothes (my uniform is still in the works). Most of the other adults saluted with the Boy Scout Salute. I'm pretty comfortable going my own way on this one, as I was always taught that the proper way to salute the flag in civvies was with the hand over the heart, but wondered what folks here thought.

 

Thanks all - these forums look active which I really appreciate!

 

 

[AnaMaria]

Since I'm a Cub Scout leader, I always use the Cub Scout sign when a sign is warranted. I've never looked/noticed what the others were doing.

 

If you're not in uniform, you follow civilian flag code guidelines. If others giving the scout salute were also not in uniform, they're in error.

 

Welcome to scouting and the forums.

 

I've been at the Cub Scout thing for 8 years now, and am assessing where to apply my efforts when the youngest moves on to Boy Scouts this year.

[shortridge]

You generally use the sign of the program in which you work. When I worked on summer camp staff, we used three fingers when Boy Scouts were in session, and two when Cubs were there.

[BSA24]

Short version: You can use whatever you like. We are just happy to have a concerned adult trying to do the right thing.

 

What you are running into are old boy scouts serving as adult cub scout leaders. As one myself, I find myself going back and forth. Here are some helpful (?) scenarios:

 

1. At round table - if it is a cub scout round table, I use the Cub Scout sign and so should the other leaders. We are playing at being cub scouts there.

 

2. Mixed round table - Boy Scout sign because I am a Boy Scout in my heart.

 

3. Pack Meeting - Cub Scout Sign - it is for the youth to silence them except for those pledging their oaths. Always the cub scout sign.... EXCEPT...

 

4. Webelos - always use the Boy Scout sign. Webelos are supposed to be learning about the Boy Scouts. I always started pack meetings with the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the pack, then turned to the Webelos and had them give the Boy Scout Oath and the Scout Law for our closing and use the three finger signs and salutes with them.

 

On the whole, all adults who register with BSA as leaders are saying that they sign onto the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and the mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to instill the Scout Oath and Scout Law in youth to prepare them for life. Therefore, it does make sense for all adult leaders to educate themselves as Boy Scouts and learn the Scout Oath and Law the Boy Scouts use as that is the core of the program.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Me personally it depend on the role I'm in and/or the uniform I'm in.

 

If I'm in my DL uniform or CSRT uniform, CS sign it is.

 

I have three sets of district uniforms now: Venturing and 2 Sea Scout. In the Venturing uniform it's the Venturing Sign. Sea Scout is Scout Sign.

 

[SSScout]

#1) Blue tabs on the shoulder, CS sign.

 

#2 CSDC, CS sign.

 

#3 CS RoundTable, (see #1), CS sign.

 

#4 CS Pack/Den meeting, CS sign.

 

#5 Webelos Den meeting, still CSs, cs sign. Learn the BS stuff, but they ain't BSs yet. Learn and when the transformation/metamorposis takes place, lead them in the BS sign.

#6 Archery range at CSDC: Three fingers on the string, KEEP THAT THUMB OFF THE STRING... BS sign as the sample...

 

#7 Watching parade, US flag goes by... See #1.

 

#8 As your pride in being a CSLeader requires... CS sign.

 

[rjscout]

When I was a CM, I would always use the CS sign, unless we were saying the Scout Promise or Oath.

 

[BDPT00]

It's nice to see people trying their best to "follow the rules," and it's also nice to see direct answers to the OP's questions, instead of opinions and slams (something akin to the "saluting police"), and instead of, "Do whatever you feel like doing."

By the way, if you're a vet, you're entitled to use a military salute.

And I agree, the salute you use is based upon the role you're playing at the time.

Good question. Good answers. Refreshing.

BDPT00

 

[pchadbo]

I am with SSScout on this one, I am a Pack Committe Chair and a district committee member, if I have my blue loops on, it is the CS salute for me, if the loops are sliver, it it the BS salute for me. In civilian clothes, hat off, hand over heart.

[ScoutNut]

What pchadbo said!

[gibsoncrg]

I sure appreciate both the thoughtful replies and the positive tone. I also think I've developed a better feel for the community and believe I was doing the right thing, but still, it's good to hear it from folks with a few more hash marks on their sleeves (so to speak!).

[CalicoPenn]

First, Welcome to the Forums!! You've started with a question that is going to get you nearly unanimity of responses - the next one might just fly off into directions you'll never dream of - and that's part of the fun of the forums!

 

So my answer? You're a Cub Scout leader - use the Cub Scout sign - always - even if you are the only Cub Scout leader in attendance. If you were both a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout leader, then you would have to worry about which sign to use. Even if you're the Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner and are wearing Silver Tabs - use the Cub Scout sign. When you become a Boy Scout leader, then use the Boy Scout sign.

 

Saluting the flag? Hand over the heart is always an option. But you are in uniform, albeit not a military uniform, and the flag code specifically allows non-military citizens in uniform to give an appropriate formal salute - for uniformed Cub Scouts and Leaders, it's the Cub Scout salute. For uniformed Boy Scouts and Leaders, it's the Boy Scout salute. That same clause allows police officers and firefighters to salute the flag as well, rather than just hold hand over the heart. Keep in mind, Formal Saluts and Military Salute mean different things. Though a police force's Formal Salute may resemble a Military Salute, it is not, for these purposes a Military Salute. As a side for anyone interested - in 2008, the code was changed to allow members of the Armed Forces and Veterans who are not in uniform to use the Military Salute.

 

As for signs-up? Remember when I mentioned that somtimes the answers might go in directions you hadn't though of? This is one of those times. If you must join the crowd in "signs up", then use the Cub Scout sign - even if you are the only Cub Scout leader in a sea of Boy Scouts. Me? I don't participate in the "signs up" act. My personal belief is that "signs up" demeans the Cub Scout and Boy Scout signs from a meaningful symbol to a visual "shut up". I believe the best way to get folks attention is to stand quietly at the head of the room and wait until folks settle down - and they tend to settle down quickly - it's amazing the power a single, standing, silent person facing down a crowd has.

 

Oh, and welcome to Scouting - it's an adventure and a half!

[rjscout]

I don't mind the sign up to request quiet. Some people may interpret standing there quietly as just waiting for something else. It is good to communicate something. What I don't like isnhearing someone shout "sign's up"!

[AnaMaria]

Can you provide a reference for this?

 

"But you are in uniform, albeit not a military uniform, and the flag code specifically allows non-military citizens in uniform to give an appropriate formal salute ..."

 

I just had a fresh look at the code and the references to being in uniform seem by context to mean US Military uniform. If I'm missing something, please point it out!

[NJCubScouter]

I think the only time the Cub Scout sign is "mandatory" is when you are in a meeting with Cub Scouts (meaning youths.) At a Webelos den meeting, after the Webelos have been taught the Scout sign, it probably makes sense to start using the Scout sign. At a meeting with adults, it's entirely up to you.

 

I just have a small issue with something that BSA24 said:

 

On the whole, all adults who register with BSA as leaders are saying that they sign onto the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and the mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to instill the Scout Oath and Scout Law in youth to prepare them for life. Therefore, it does make sense for all adult leaders to educate themselves as Boy Scouts and learn the Scout Oath and Law the Boy Scouts use as that is the core of the program.

 

This is a tough thing for me to say, because I have known the Scout Oath, Law, Sign etc. since I was 11 years old and they have long since become "second nature" to me. But I am trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who was never in any BSA program until they register as a Cub Scout leader. What reason would they have to know the Scout Oath and Law? They are not on the adult leader application. They are not part of the program that the Cub Scout leader has signed up for -- Cub Scouts has its own promise. (And it doesn't even require you to promise "to be square", as it did when I used to recite it.) Saying that Cub Scout leaders should "educate themselves as Boy Scouts"... I don't know. It's not the program that they are in. Many of them will get there soon enough.

 

On the other hand, since the Scout Oath, Sign, etc. are so ingrained in me, when I became a den leader and then an ACM, I probably gave the Scout Sign instead of the Cub Scout Sign sometimes without even realizing it. When it came time to recite the Cub Scout promise, I usually followed along with everybody else, because my brain kept giving the words to the Scout Oath instead.