Is scouting for extroverts?

[Eaglemom2b]

I have been thinking about this for awhile now and wonder if, like so much of modern society, scouting has based its program on the Extravert Ideal. With the emphasis pointing toward overt leadership, are introverts at an inherent disadvantage?

 

I am not speaking about the 'shy' scout who might benefit from a little encouragement to develop his leadership/public speaking ability but rather the boys with demonstrated introvert qualities, like the desire to work in small vs. large groups, leading by quiet example and not through boisterous behavior, one whose ideas reflect quality but not necassarily quantity? The boys who are willing to demonstrate their skills and share their knowledge but allow other scouts to particpate in decision making and learn through experience?

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I'm thinking from your post that you have been caught up in the grandiose management style of the BSA rather than real leadership. I have had Eagle scouts who fit into the loud and flashy and into the shy and reserved, both showing exceptional leadership. Management by directive, however, the flashy scout excelled and yet at times that management directive often times worked counter productive to his skills as a leader. Eventually he toned down his management directives and got far better leadership results with the boys.

 

The shy Eagle, was more the caring, assisting, "how can I help you" style of management which worked well for his leadership. He was one of the best TG's I have ever seen. I don't think he would have lasted very long as an SPL, but as a PL/TG of younger boys he was fantastic. I always teased him as being a "mother hen", a title that he actually enjoyed and often referred to himself as. He did wonders for providing a constant supply of new scouts that would move up and take leadership positions in the troop with the ideals he lived by. He always started out as PL of the NSP and would quickly shift into TG once the boys got oriented to the troop. Each boy was thus instructed in PL responsibilities.

 

What training did this shy boy receive? When I came into the troop he got only one instruction from me. "Take care of your boys." He said he could handle that, and he did very well as a strong leader in the troop. Even as the other boys progressed and took on leadership, they always came back to him for mentoring and assistance. Even while he was a bit weak on management skills, if the troop were to elect him as SPL he would have done an adequate job. He always turned down the nomination so he could be with the NSP.

 

Stosh

 

Oh, by the way, I forgot: Even after he got his Eagle (age 16) he did not want JASM, he wanted to keep doing what he was doing. How many troops out there had an Eagle scout for NSP PL/TG? (This message has been edited by jblake47)

[mdlscouting]

It isn't ONLY for Extroverts, but there are a lot of things in it that appeal to Extroverts.

 

My oldest son and I both have Asperger's. One of the effects of this is that we can very often be Introverted, it is our most natural pattern.

 

One of the great advantages of Scouting, that if it is done right, it can actually be quite accommodating to Introverts. In a Den, or in a Patrol, A boy gets to spend a long time making friends with a handful of people, the same friends over a long time. For an Introvert, that makes it much easier to build friendships that last. Not in quantity of friendships, but in quality. That's what is most important for many introverts.

 

As far as Leadership goes, Not all leadership means being outgoing. Someone can be a Leader in the troop in many ways that don't involve being the loud guy in charge and in front of everyone.

 

Those scouts who are introverted may face some additional challenges in those areas, but virtually all scouts have unique skills that might make them great at one task, and not the best person to succeed at another.

[qwazse]

Scouting is for hard workers. Some of the introverted boys I knew could work hard.

 

Slackers, introverted or extroverted, would eventually find an excuse to quit.

[Gunny2862]

I'm an Introvert, you'd never know it at Camp, or at a Camp out, but I seriously need to recharge with some alone time afterwards. I put on a pretty good show sometimes...

 

Overt Leadership however doesn't require a Showman, it does require occasionally showing the Flag in front of the Troops, but not necessarily being the Ringmaster - and even the Ringmaster has the floods switch to whatever act is performing before it comes back to allow him to announce the next event. One might even say the guy controlling the lights is in charge more than the Ringmaster, and you never see him...

[emb021]

I'm an introvert.

 

Frankly, Scouting (among other things) is what has helped me overcome this. It was the first place I was a leader of others, it was one of the first places that I got in front of a group to lead and speak with others.

 

Yeah, those that are extroverts will thrive in Scouting, but so can the introverts (and more importantly, become less of an introvert).

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I am a very introverted person. Probably an Asperger's kid had such a diagnosis even existed in decades ago.

 

Scouting teaches that leadership is a collection of learned behaviors, and anyone who learns those behaviors can be a competent leader.

 

I'm about as big a ham bone as you get as a Cubmaster, but as others note I need time by myself as well.

[shortridge]

Ditto to what emb said. Many, many of my favorite leaders in Scouting have been introverts. My role model for much of my youth, the camp director at my old camp, spoke only rarely, enjoyed quiet conversations and simple speech, and was the least center-of-attention guy I know. He's a great guy and has the respect of thousands despite not being a rah-rah barn-stormer.

[Eagledad]

>>With the emphasis pointing toward overt leadership, are introverts at an inherent disadvantage?

[oldisnewagain1]

>Is scouting for extroverts?

 

No, I met many an introvert in Scouting. The funny thing is most Scouts that age out are no longer introverts when they leave

[blw2]

Interesting topic.

I am a strong I. I have considered that to be one reason I didn't excel in scouting as a boy, although I did/do enjoy it. (I went through Cubs, but scout only for a short while before I left it)

Sometimes it's hard for the shy kids to shine when there in a groupl of E's. Something for us leaders to remember, and help to encourage the I's without shining too bright of a spotlight on them that makes them uncomfortable.... when that happens, they would rather be anyplace else but there....

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

I doubt very much if Is changed into Es.

 

But I think Scouting helps Is adapt to and understand an E dominated environment, and be able to deal with it better.

 

That doesn't change an I to an E though.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[BartHumphries]

I'm rather an introvert in private. People that remember me from high school may remember me walking from class to class with my nose in a book, not speaking to anyone. I have learned, however, to "put on my game face" when I'm in public, because that's what's expected when you're leading games. I'm not saying that it's all an act -- it's like not belching in public, I choose to act in a certain manner because that's what's expected.

 

For instance, many people appear to be great confident public speakers, but when you ask them about it they'll tell you how worried they get when they speak or how many butterflies they have in their stomach. They've learned how to better present themselves when speaking in public. This is something that introverted people tend to have trouble with and they tend to need more experience and more help getting to that point where they can speak confidently and fluently. My mom, for instance, is a great speaker, she talks all over the place for various groups, but she literally gets physically sick to her stomach when she knows she'll be presenting something before a large group. She's learned coping mechanisms which enable her to be able to present herself as a confident speaker, even though that's still not what she "really" is, even after all these years.

 

I'm not saying that everyone has to be loud or should be loud, but when the group is performing their cheer, you have to jump in and do it too, no matter what your personal feelings are. If it's your job to lead that cheer, then you have to jump out and lead that cheer. If you can't do these things, then as a leader you may be at a disadvantage at times, just as any person would be at a disadvantage at times if they weren't able to get themselves to do what was expected of them. I'm not saying that not being able to lead a group cheer after evening flags before dinner is a bad thing, we all have personal areas that we are working to improve, none of us are perfect.

 

The way the original post by Eaglemom2b was structured seems to suggest that introverts are better leaders than extroverts, which I don't quite agree with -- I think both types of people bring a different emphasis and tend to have different skillsets, all of which are useful and desirable in different contexts.

[Eaglemom2b]

Thank you for the replies. I have found them quite helpful as I continue to ponder this question.

I am currently reading the book Quiet by Susan Cain so the introvert-extrovert dichotomy is fresh in my mind.

 

I realize that each troop and program is going to be different but in my experience it is the extroverts who do well and advance quicker. The Es seem to be elected to OA at a younger age, spend less time in BORs, and be elected to the 'desired' positions of leadership (SPL, ASPL, Scribe, PL) more times than not. The Board has shorter post-BOR discussions regarding the Es and fewer comments about how these scouts can grow in the program.

 

 

Note: This is all anecdotal and in no way scientifically proven.

 

Is on the other hand spend 2-3x the time in BORs, the Boards usually have numerous comments about expected changes, and they, the Is, usually have to repeat BORs in order to advance. In my experience there are fewer Is elected to OA and rarely elected to hold SPL or ASPL. They usually receive jobs like Librarian or Historian (jobs which, in our old troop, have zero responsibility and are filled only for POR/advancement purposes)or Quartermaster which is the job requiring the most work (the troop has an interesting way of defining the QM responsibilities).

 

I did make it sound like Is are better leaders but that is not what I meant at all. I realize that both personality types have strengths and weaknesses and each can be effective in a variety of situations and circumstances.

 

--

And remember from my intitial post: I do not necessarily equate introversion with being shy. I am an introvert and not shy at all. Although most shy individuals are introverts, not all introverts are shy.

 

I also don't believe a true introvert can alter his personality so much that he becomes an E. He may learn coping mechanisms and behaviors that allow him to meet the demands required in the current situation but reverts to his innate behaviors as soon as he can.

 

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

Many extroverts don't "get" introverts. They think introversion is some sort of disorder that must be "cured."

 

A story comes to mind: A farmer in a poor rural third world area wanted a visiting Western doctor to examine and "cure" his son who, although in his teens, had not yet had his first menstrual cycle. You see, everyone in the village, and everyone the farmer had every known suffered from a schistosome infection that caused haematuria such that they'd occasionally notice some blood in their urine. To him, that was normal. But his teenage son had never had noticeable blood in his urine. Somehow, the boy had avoided the endemic infection or did not obviously exhibit that particular symptom. And the farmer wanted to see if the doc could figure out what was wrong with the boy and how to "cure" it.

 

Examine this quote from a post from above: "extroverts will thrive in Scouting, but so can the introverts (and more importantly, become less of an introvert)."

It reads a lot like this adaptation of it expressing a parallel idea: "homely and ordinary looking people will thrive in Scouting, but so can the beautiful (and more importantly, become less beautiful)."

 

It seems some confuse introversion with timidity or shyness. They aren't the same.

 

Google might be a friend in this instance - try "introvert misconceptions" and see what Google fishes up for your reading pleasure.

 

But it's helpful for introverts to learn how to wrangle extroverts because extroverts are statistically more prevalent... and extroverts need help.