Recharter question

[bokris]

Hi All,

 

I haven't been able to locate good information on the internet thus far, so I bring this question to you.

 

My son is finishing his 1st year Webelos, and will be crossing over somewhere next Spring. The troop our CO has has been dwindling over the past several years and will be at 2 strong at crossover time. I am the current Cubmaster for the pack, and will be willing to take over the Scoutmaster role (it been in discussion for 3 years) at recharter time in December, 2012. My Webelos who will cross over in Spring will bring a new patrol of 8 kids. I have been told that a troop must have 5 kids at recharter in order to recharter. This comes from a fairly reliable source. Not the regulations. I can't find regulations on this. Does anyone know if there must be 5 Scouts in a troop at recharter time for a troop to recharter?

 

Thanks.

[Beavah]

Hiya bokris,

 

Yes, in general there's an expectation that there be 5 boys on the roster to recharter. However, yeh can usually get that requirement waived by your council under circumstances like what you're talkin' about. Nobody wants to lose a troop, so folks will work with yeh to make sure that doesn't happen if there's a solid plan in place.

 

Beavah

 

[bokris]

Thanks, Beavah...

 

I was hopeful; and I will be speaking with my DE soon to make sure she is aware of the issue and the resolve to the issue. I look forward to leading at the next level, if they allow...

 

Thanks again!

[Lisabob]

bokris, I believe the threshold (5) is in the paperwork for starting a new unit. It might also be in the charter agreement, I don't recall. But as Beavah said, it can be waived.

 

Another thing I've seen happen is that boys were crossed over early - when they turned 11, rather than at the traditional crossover date (which is sometimes a few/several months later, depending on the boy's birthday). The arrangement I'm familiar with, the boys were officially recorded as earning AoL and crossing over to the Troop on their birthday, but unofficially they stayed with their Webelos den through the time when the crossover normally would have occurred. That gave the troop the #s on paper for recharter while not robbing the boys of their last hurrah as cubs (assuming they were still engaged and enthused by cubs).

 

Good luck, and thanks for breathing new life into that troop. Looking forward to hearing more about your journey over the next couple of years.

[NJCubScouter]

I hope they just give bokris the waiver rather than having boys be Boy Scouts "on paper" but still Webelos "in person." Although I realize the good intentions behind the latter route, it sounds vaguely reminiscent of the kinds of "games" that have caused scandals in the past. Not to mention with a December recharter date, it would only work if the Webelos den happens to have enough boys with birthdays before the recharter date. You could have a den-full of boys with birthdays in the spring (I've seen it happen.) Although I suppose that even before they are 11, they could "cross over" (on paper) once they have earned the AoL, and (the last time I looked) the time requirement for that is 6 months since completion of the fourth grade, so as of December 31 it would just barely work. Not a good way to do things, in my opinion, but again I realize it is suggested with the best of intentions.

[bokris]

Hi Lisabob: I have actually been speaking with the Webelos parents about the possibility of earning Arrow of Light, completing the Boy Scout application, and meeting as a new Boy Scout patrol, but not having the ceremony until Blue/Gold, based on tradition/ boy desires. The new boys would meet separately from those still working towards AOL. This would allow those who haven't earned AOL to continue to work towards this, and hopefully complete prior to Blue/Gold, so that the Webelos Den can participate in the ceremony of AOL/ crossover together. I have actually considered crossing over the Bridge behind them, as I will be leaving my Cubmaster role of the past several years, and crossing over to be their Scoutmaster. I believe this would be appropriate.... Thoughts?

I realize that this may not be in alignment with my dilemma, however I believe this would be an appropriate plan to present to Council for the purpose of requesting a waiver...

 

Hi NJCubscouter: I agree with what you are saying regarding not wanting to have any questionable practices. I don't think LisaBob meant anything by the wording. The above statement is the plan that I have been working on, which I hope to be appropriate. The 5 boy recharter question from this past weekend that was presented to me was the monkeywrench thrown into my plan...

 

Thanks ya'll!

[Basementdweller]

Well that whole ceremony thing is silly......

 

Why not cross them over in November or December if their have completed the Arrow of light?????

 

Why are you waiting till the blue and gold?????? No reason too.

 

I would have the exact same ceremony in November as I would do in February.

 

We hold Two boy scout crossovers a year spring and fall.....The boy earns his AOL, I am not going to hold him back.....Generally they will cross over in groups of twos or threes.....No big deal....

 

Far as crossing over the bridge yourself, uhhhh why???? If it makes ya feel better go a head and do it......In my mind, the program is about the boys and I will not detract from that with a ceremony of my own......

 

I will say that I did an induction ceremony for my replacement from the ceremony book, it was hilarious, handed her the phone, the walking stick the megaphone then told her she couldn't wear the patch upright till she did a good deed.....of course it was the Wolves that MC'd the ceremony.......

[bokris]

Hi Basementdweller,

 

It is the boys who want to cross over at Blue/Gold. When we discussed an early crossover, they were opposed to this idea, stating, "that's when its always done." It is the biggest turnout of the scout year, and they want to do it then. As I don't want them sitting around waiting for Blue/Gold, should they meet requirements in January; I would rather the paperwork be completed, and begin working on tenderfoot requirements until Blue/Gold, and they should be close to completion of tenderfoot by end of school, if not before. This is up to them.

 

As stated; I considered crossing the bridge, not to take away from their spotlight, but to symbolically represent my being behind them in their scouting career. I will be scoutmaster in December, and it may be more effective to be the Scoutmaster on the other side of the bridge welcoming them in. It will be my Assistant Cubmaster who will be taking my role as Cubmaster in December, and be the CubMaster guiding them out of Cub Scouts, towards the bridge...

 

I always intend to keep the kids at the forefront... Thanks for helping me explore these questions in which I have been struggling!

[Basementdweller]

OK ya lost me there

 

 

Sooooooo, The boys want to crossover at the Blue and Gold....Great cool and understood.

 

But your going to sign them up with the Troop and work on the tenderfoot before the Crossover ceremony?????????? That makes absolutely no sense. I think you out of line doing it......

 

Sounds like a nice time for a life lesson.....

 

"Well boys we can cross you over in November and go camp with the troop or you can stay webelos till crossover, whats it gonna be???"

 

 

I have found that if I think about posting a question to this forum, I already know that what I am doing is wrong and I am looking for someone to support my easy way out decision....

 

 

 

So in my eyes there are two choices here.

 

Crossover prior to December, save the troop and be boy scouts.

 

or

 

Risk recharter failure and cross the boys into boy scouts in February....

 

This mealy mouse stuff about being boy scouts and pretending to be webelos yet working on the tenderfoot......is lets just say less than scouting.........

 

What is the lesson the boys are taking away from that???

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Off course as a new SM you have to look at why is the troop failing????

 

What did the program look like last year????? the year before?????

 

With only two boys are they camping and hiking monthly?????

[NJCubScouter]

I think this is being made more complicated than it needs to be.

 

I would just request the waiver -- without any mention of changing when the boys cross over. Ideally they should cross over when it is traditional for your pack to cross them over, if that is what the boys want. Your "pitch" on the waiver could be something like, as of January 1 the troop will recharter with two boys, but in February (or March) eight others are joining, so the troop will be back up over five, can we just do that so the troop can continue to exist and so the boys' Cub Scout program is not disrupted? (Or something like that.)

 

After you make the request, assuming you make it to the right person (going through the DE sounds right, though he/she may send you to someone else), it shouldn't take too long to get a response. Hopefully a week or so? (I don't really know how long it will take, I'm just hoping.) Meanwhile, you have more than seven months before recharter time. That should be plenty of time to come up with a "Plan B" if your waiver is turned down, and to implement the plan in a way that causes as little disruption to the boys as possible.

 

In my opinion the boys should be shielded from all this bureaucratic stuff as much as possible. Hopefully your council will agree. In the meantime, the troop you are joining may not be very active for a couple of months while it only has two Scouts, but at least it would still exist.

[Oak Tree]

We had one unit recharter with three youth. No one mentioned anything about a waiver. I figured I'd ask for one if they told me that I needed five youth, but they didn't say anything about it. Sort of an automatic waiver, I guess. So you might not even need one, depending on who is doing your rechartering.

[bear dad]

We are starting a new pack and I was told that a new national requirement is 10 boys to start.Which is what we are doing now, not sure in your neck of the woods. DE told us that studies shown that with more boys the odds of folding is less, so they say.....

[NJCubScouter]

We are starting a new pack and I was told that a new national requirement is 10 boys to start.Which is what we are doing now, not sure in your neck of the woods. DE told us that studies shown that with more boys the odds of folding is less, so they say.....

 

That last statement, where you quote the DE, strikes me as particularly inane.

 

Of course "with more boys the odds of folding is less"! They needed "studies" for that? But (and bear dad, I am not asking you this question, just asking it rhetorically) how does that justify denying a charter to units with between five and nine boys in them? They are guaranteeing that the unit is going to fail, by denying it a charter, whereas a troop with that many boys can be turned around through successful recruiting so it is less in danger of folding. (Often they aren't turned around, but it is possible and I have seen it happen.) So, I don't get it.

 

And I have to wonder, is that policy being enforced uniformly? The reason I ask is that it was my impression (mainly from reading this board) that there is a particular CO that charters many, many units that routinely got waivers, even from the five-person rule, so that they could maintain their organizational structure of one pack/troop/team/crew per (whatever the relevant corresponding organizational unit is within their church, whoops maybe I gave it away there.) If they had trouble meeting a minimum of five per unit, how are they making out with a minimum of ten? Not mentioning any names of course...

[bokris]

Sooo, Basementdweller... What I'm hearing You say is that ceremony should happen IMMEDIATELY upon signing paperwork. There is no time between the signing of the paperwork and ceremony? No ceremonies are ever set for any time later than the paperwork? IMHO, the ceremonial recognition is just that; the ceremony. Not the advancement completion.

 

"I have found that if I think about posting a question to this forum, I already know that what I am doing is wrong and I am looking for someone to support my easy way out decision...."

 

I do not look for an "easy way out" in situations. I do not post on this forum unless I have struggled through the various aspects of a decision, and feel the need for the collective wisdom of the people who gather on this site.

 

I'm "out of line" in my thinking? I believe you are out of line in your judgment of me...

 

You do not know me other than a question posted here, and my attempt to work through to the best solution. I'm in favor of constructive criticism; this is how a person grows. I am not in favor of put-downs. The condescension shows through flagrantly in your posts, and this is not helpful. I hope that you do not lead your scout troop with the same tone and attitude. If you lead in the way that you posted here; it makes me wonder; who listens? I wouldn't want to listen to your sarcasm. There are kind ways to get a point across, and unkind ways. It seems as though, based on your posts; you may have forgotten some parts of the scout law ... or do you preach them and not practice them yourself?