Those darned swim checks

[Beavah]

I propose that we do not water down the swim test!

 

Yah, SeattlePioneer, I hear yeh.

 

Like Oak Tree says, though, we do water down the swim test most of the time, and give credit for just completin' the 100 yards.

 

Perhaps we should separate the swim test requirement for rank advancement from what we expect in order to access the waterfront.

 

For rank, we want boys to swim in a strong manner. That's somethin' to work on over time and get good at, just like any advancement requirement. Yeh shouldn't have do demonstrate it day one of camp any more than you have to line up and demonstrate a shear lashing at check-in.

 

For access to the waterfront, we just run things like every other beach, waterfront, and pool in da civilized world.

 

Beavah

 

[dfolson]

Now for a slight shift....

 

Last year I had a Webelos at camp refuse to take the swim test because they would not let him use his mask. Is there any reason they could not have let him use it?

[Twocubdad]

Yes, df. I've seen kids who develop such an attachement to a mask or goggles or swim wings, that they cannot function without them. The can be great swimmers, but have a dependency on their crutch. So what happens when their canoe tips over or they trip and fall off the fishing dock without the mask?

 

Swim tests aren't mandatory, ya know? Last year our Philmont crew was on a shakedown the day we did the testing, so none of them showed up for camp with them. One guy, who was doing some aquatics MB, did the test Sunday afternoon, but the rest either blew it off. Wednesday afternoon, when the whole troop went for a free swim, they either asked the staff to let them test then (which the staff was happy to do) of just stayed in the non-swimmer area.

 

I started to write that we should consider different swim tests for different activities but thinking that through, no. I do think there are some tweaks in how waterfronts are run, particularly for recreational swimming. When we run our own swimming area for the troop, we don't worry about ability groups, but simply set up the swim area so the water is not over anyone's head. Truth is, if you're just splashing around, there's no reason to be in 8 feet of water.

 

Every scout camp waterfront I've seen is set up with a non swimmer area which is usually no more than knee deep, a beginner area that goes to about chest deep on most boys, and a swimmer area over the head of everyone. Go to free swim and see where the kids are -- the beginner area. Except for young cubs, segregating non swimmers to knee-deep water is silly. Few kids use the swimmer area, except for short periods. Unless they're is some purpose, hanging out in the deep water is too much work. The kids who just want to have fun head for the beginner area where they can play games and enjoy the water with their friends.

 

Maybe free swim time could be set up with a little less structure? Or limited "recreational swim" rules established

[Engineer61]

"Like Oak Tree says, though, we do water down the swim test most of the time, and give credit for just completin' the 100 yards."

 

Yeah, the test gets watered down (kind of a pun isn't it) even by Certified Lifeguards...I would have failed my Scout based on what I saw.

 

"Is there any reason they could not have let him use it?" (Swim mask...)

 

Had the same problem with my Scout, won't swim without goggles.

 

Yeah, I think there is a problem with allowing it ... I think one important part of the swim test is the jumping into water over your head and swimming off ...

 

When he falls of the deck/dock/boat will he panic or ignore the sting in his eyes?

 

Mine will panic and drown. Just the way it is.

 

 

[qwazse]

It's important to realize we aren't just testing for a pool swim.

 

If a first class scout comes up to me and asks to take my kayak for a spin with his buddy (say, one of my female venturers who works as a life guard), I'm going to trust the swim test he did at camp and she did to get her job was good enough. I'm not going to ask, "Didja swim a real 100 yds or a watered down 99?"

 

Now, if it's been more than a year and the guy doesn't keep in shape, I might schedule a party at the local pool and keep and eye on how willing he is to hit the lanes.

 

 

[dg98adams]

I think the dock/boat example (can't swim without mask/goggles) is weak, since they HAVE a PFD on panic or not swimming is going to be on top of the water anyways....but in a pool or lake just for a swim test? Come on?

 

A Camp aquatics director actually said that goggles or masks can't be used for the BSA swim check? What about nose plugs, swim caps or "$100+ speed suits? Ridiculous.

 

As a YMCA Lifeguard/BSA Lifeguard, I would draw the line anywhere on a Scout using items that specifically enhance arm/leg propulsion, natural flotation, natural breathing (snorkels, fins, paddles, water wings although it's not "written") for the Swim check.

 

Besides the PH in the Camp pool is never good for my own eyes, and I always use goggles.

 

[Gunny2862]

I've been staying out of this but now, here goes.

 

The swim check is, in the BSA form not so much a test of ability but a self-rescue check, higher levels of proven ability lead to more access. As such, anything that one might not have AT ALL TIMES should be prohibited.

The goggle issue is just crazy. Sure some pools are over chemical-ed and goggles are nice, but for the test unless the chemicals are ridiculously out of variance(in which case maybe the test needs to be rescheduled)the test-ees need to swim without the aid of masks or goggles. People DO become dependent on masks and they CAN and DO get knocked off which leads to an immediate panic reaction. They should just prove they can self-rescue without the mask or goggles, after which they should be free to use them at will.

 

On another note: Lifeguards who pass Scouts (or Scouters) to higher levels they haven't met the requirement for aren't doing anyone, including themselves, any favors, the swimmers should meet the higher standard or be denied the higher access.

[John-in-KC]

In my council, we've gotten an agreement with area YMCA's. They will do the swim check in town to BSA standards, and our Scout Reservations are accepting the test.

 

The Troop I serve as a UC JUMPED on this!

[dg98adams]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda is not in the requirements. Neither are the words self-check-for-rescue, it's a life skill, just not the only aquatic life skill you can learn.

 

I mean Gunny by your defination, they should start the test in clothes, shoes, socks, PFD, 1 hand on a paddle, and the other holding a fishing rod..... now you have a real rescue check!

 

Just like everything else BSA word-smithed to death, it "is" what it "isn't" regardless of personal interpretation.

 

Can you jump in and swim (forward motion in a strong manner 3 laps then a resting backstroke lap) in water over your head with 1 deep water turn and then float. It doesn't say how long to float, but you just can't stand up when done swimming (deep water) and I wil let you know when you have floated enough. This is the portion related to exhaustion (really just tired) to demonstrate floating when tired.

 

I consider this a "discussion-around-the-campfire" topic, so please do not take my comments to impune anyone elses ability, just by pulling a chair up to the coals and offering my opinion.(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Twocubdad,

 

 

 

[eisely]

I agree that the swim tests should not be watered down. We are talking about a basic survival skill here. BSA makes it a point of pride that there have been no swiming fatalities in BSA as long as the standards were being followed. I do not want that first fatality on my watch because the standards were reduced.

[Scoutfish]

yeah, I suppose if you want to test the scouts ability to react ina real manner, you should wait til the end of the day - just after dusk - after a long hike in the winter, with snow on the ground and about a 1/8th inch layer of ice on teh lake...after the scout only had a pop tart and a few granola bars to eat all day .

 

Make sure he is wearing heavy boots, pants, full coat, hat and gloves over long johns. Put a bag pack on him with his sleeping bag, tent, clothes, personal camp stove kit ( Jet Boil) and whatever else a scout might carry.

 

Now, when he's not looking or realizing what might happen...push him in that cold lake!

 

 

Now that's a REAL swim check!

 

 

We go to a local YMCA pool. The water is over their head in the 2 lanes we use from one end to the other. They jump in, swim to the other end and back, then to the other end one more time. Then they change up their stroke. Then they show they can float.

 

Biggest problem we have is that they all think they are Michael Phelps when they first jump in.

 

WE have to keep telling them that they are not racing anybody. They just need to swim.

[Oak Tree]

I think that someone's interpretation of the rules depends on what they believe the rules are intended to produce.

 

If we think it's a life skill, it's one thing. If we think it's to make sure you don't drown when you fall in from a boat or the dock, it's another thing. If it's to make sure you're fine playing in the deep end of the pool, it's something else.

 

At any rate, the rules don't explicitly say anything about what aids may be used. For today's generation of Scouts, almost all of them are used to using goggles in the pool. Most of them use goggles for the test. We don't say anything about it. If someone wanted to use a mask, we'd allow that too.

 

I figure the main point of swimming 100 yards is to show that you are comfortable in the water and can swim for an extended period of time, longer than what a burst of energy would allow.

 

I can see the point of saying "in a strong manner", but it's just a terrible test. What does that mean? How do you tell all of the leaders in your group to evaluate it in the same manner? What is the actual intent of that? If the point is to indicate that the Scout would be able to keep going beyond 100 yards, then change the test. Make it 150 yards, or 200 yards, or whatever it is you actually think they should be able to swim. If it means that they should be able to do it in some certain amount of time, then just write the test that way. As it is, my interpretation is roughly this - "if the Scout can swim 100 yards, he's able to swim in a strong manner."

[kari_cardi]

My local YMCA network does similar yearly swim checks for any youth under the age of 16 before they enter any water except the baby pool and for swim lessons. Maybe this isn't common elsewhere? They've been doing it for about 4 years. They've also always done swim checks for youth to use the diving boards and diving area.

 

'More to the point, teen lifeguards routinely handle swimming pools with higher ratios of swimmers to guards than we have at BSA camps, and they do it without doin' swim checks. Every day. All over the nation.'

 

I do live in the USA. Perhaps BSA is serving as a model in safety in this area.

[Scoutfish]

We had both scouts and leaders wear swim goggles for the swim check. Nobody had a mask though.

 

Of course, I'm not sure which is worse on teh eyes: The high clorine level at the pools or the "stuff" that is in the lake water.

 

Side note: You ever wonder why some hotels have their clorine level cranked so freakin high?

 

Because they want to keep from having to close the pools for 9 days if an inspector happens to find pee or poop in the pools in order to be sure all contaminants are gone.

 

Keep the levels cranked just shy of buring your skin off , and you can tell everybody they can pee in the pool and the levels will be below the acceotable levels.

 

Find poop and you scoop it out and keep going without any worrys.

 

I'm talking about the cheaper places that the pool water is clouidy all the time due to high clorine levels. You know, the pools that will bleach a Hawaian Tropic Tanning Contest model pure white in 2 minutes flat!