Always dreading Webelos recruitment

[fred8033]

Sorry for rehashing a past discussion. I'm just venting right now because of something that happened this morning.

 

BSA needs to redesign Webelos transition. It should be fun and enjoyable for all. But, I just dread it. This year we got 15 (12 active so far) new scouts from two different packs. Next year looks like another strong year. *** But *** I've lost a lot of respect for scouters because of recruitment and what happens. Lack of support for their own packs. Heavy handed recruitment. Slamming other units. Plus the stress involved is just frustrating.

 

At one point, I fully agreed with BSAs approach of shopping for the right troop. Promotes better troops right? Well, I just dont think it works that way. I dont think parents know what to look for. Instead, they join based on one or two experiences and then also on the smoozing factor.

 

I wish BSA would create a stronger alignment between packs and troops. A continuous scouting experience. Eliminate shopping for troops. Of course if a scout and his family are having a bad experience, let them switch. But I think the program would be stronger if it emphasized a continual scouting experience. At least then, youth and their parents know something about the charter org thru their years of experience in the pack. They should know the facility, the time and probably many of the leaders.

 

Heck, why have such a major transition point that throws everything up into the air? Its already close to the needed result. Webelos arent Cub Scouts and they arent BoyScouts. Theyre Webelos scouts.

 

Theres also something to be said for loyalty. Ideally speaking, the charter org created a youth program (scouting units) to do something nice for youth and the community. So if you are in their pack, why wouldnt you show your gratitude and support by joining their troop. If you plan to join another charter orgs troop, why not switch to that charter orgs pack.

 

....

 

Our city has eight packs and seven troops. BUT ... two troops don't have associated packs because their packs have failed in the last two years. Another huge troop has a pack that's about to fail.

 

Our troop has worked hard building a relationship with our pack and supporting our pack. But another local troop that hasn't recruited a single scout ever from their aligned pack at their own charter org. Instead, they recruit heavily from our associated pack and a few others. They don't support our pack in activities, facilities or equipment. But they call the pack under our charter org one of their feeder packs. This year we got five from our aligned pack. Next year, I'm not sure. It will be interesting though. And one of the pack leaders is going to inject things to support us as the aligned unit.

 

The trouble is that of all the great local troops I would not recommend their troop. There have been too many ugly situations. Issues happen in every troop, but incidents seem to happen three fold in their troop. I guess I would not mind their recruiting from other packs as much if they tried to recruit from their own aligned pack. But they dont. They have never recruited a single scout from the pack thats under their same roof same charter org.

 

....

 

Another troop recruits heavy handed. During visits, parents are told "We only take ten scouts every year. If you want to join, you should fill out an application now to reserve a spot." Their associated pack failed a few years ago. The pack members were welcomed into another pack under different charter org (church) that had been working hard to grow their new troop. It was to be their 1st year of a large cross over.

 

Well the other troop leader had strong ties to youth in the failed pack. So they then recruited heavily from the very welcoming charter org pack. So by welcoming those cubs that no longer had a pack and thus doing a good deed, they lost out and helped defeat their own objectives. They would have been smarter to not accept an en-masse transfer of cubs.

 

....

 

My favorite is another troop that never really talked with other leaders. This year they smoozed (word???) a few leaders that we assumed would be joining us. Well, it's okay as we got others. But we were just looking forward to those leaders and their sons joining us as we enjoy their company. It was just creepy in how they went from zero interaction to a very hign smoozing level.

 

....

 

This ramble started because this morning something happened that appeared nice. But when you reflect on why, its 100% Webelos recruitment related. AND it requires us to gear up to yet a higher level to succeed with our recruitment. Its a Webelos recruitment nuclear arms race.

 

And it gets tiring, embarrassing and very unscoutlike.

 

....

 

I hope BSA recognizes and fixes the situation some time.

 

 

[DLChris71]

Ehhh.

 

I'll be going with my son next year to different troops.

 

I think that when we go I'd like to be asked what we are looking for in a troop.

 

But barring that I'd like to be able to ask and get a decent answer(s).

 

I'd ask if we could talk to the SPL after the meeting. I'd ask how many trailers they have and if they have any what are they used for. I'd ask how many HA trips they plan to do. Are they active in OA. How many service projects and hours they did in the past 12 months. What their thoughts on FCFY? What's the average age for Eagle scouts in their troop. Do they just go to the council camp or do they switch up. How many POR do they carry. How often do patrols switch out names. How many patrols do they have. Are the patrols actively meeting outside of troop meetings and how often do they do patrol outings. Can we see the equipment shed. What do the three W's on OA lodge patches stand for. Where do the parents/scouters go during meetings. Do they have junior troop leader training. Do they have scouter leader meetings. What is their policy of scout accounts. Where was the last placed they camped. Where have they camped the last 24 months. Do they have a historian and can I see the troop history. Does the troop have Den Chiefs and LNT Trainers. Do they participate in council service days at the council camp. How many of the leaders go to roundtable. What are their views on fundraising.

 

Yep, you see me coming into the troop meeting, I'll be carrying a binder.

 

My children have a finite amount of time to enjoy scouting as boys. The last thing we want is to have them join some troop that's going to jerk them around and give them a bad experience in scouting. Sure we could join the troop associated with our pack or whatever other connection there is and yes if the situation turns bad we could leave. But given that most Webelos will be spinning wheels for 3-6 months in a pack it would be wiser to shop around, rather than losing 3-6 months in a troop and then having to sort out things over another month to find another.

[perdidochas]

I think Troop shopping is a good thing. That is how you choose a troop that meets the needs of your boy. I will admit, I only visited one troop with my oldest son, which happens to be the troop that is sponsored by the same charter org as the pack. However, I liked what I saw the first time. No need to look for something else. Several boys that were Webelos in my den joined other Troops. Honestly, I think our troop is better off for not having them. The same occurred with the crossover group that came to the troop this year. Some of their members joined other troops. I think Scouting is better off for that. Scouts can pick the troop that fits them. Our troop is a smallish (less than 20 boys) quiet low-key Troop. We like it that way. Every camporee I am happy about the choice.

[fred8033]

Troop shopping.... Most Webelos dens I've seen stay together unless there's an inside issue the den. IMHO, most troop shopping serves one person and the others just follow. So I just don't buy the matching a scout to a troop. Plus, I really don't think people know what to look for other than to avoid dysfunctional troops.

 

Plus, I'd almost ask why wait for webelos to boy scouts transition. Find a good match as soon as you can. If your aligned unit isn't a good match, switch when you know.

 

I'd almost rather see Webelos be a skills training time for Boy Scouts. Closer aligned to boy scouts. Heck, let the boy scouts help in the training. From my experience, Webelos have more in common with their future Boy Scouts then they have in common with tiger/wolf/bear scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[dg98adams]

Hmmm,.. some out of whack things in this one.

 

IMHO the key to the Webelos program is "Transition"... Cub Scout to Webelos Scout.. to preparing for Boy Scouting. I would further suggest more often than not the parent/WDL/CM/SM don't understand it enough to make it work like it's laid out. Some WDL's concentrate on the awards/AOL so much they loose sight of the Transition process, which should happen from the beginning.

 

(ever hear about the mom/dad that wants the Webelos Scout to "graduate and cross the bridge" - to nowhere, since he is not planning on transferring on to Boy Scouting? As a UC I see it every year. )

 

Having been there, as a WDL/CM, and now still an ASM... I have had a pretty good spectrum to draw from to see what works and what doesn't. And I do believe, 1 visit to ANY prospective Boy Scout Troop, doesn't even come close to the idea of "shopping a unit".

 

I think the Troop my son choose (against my judgement - several years ago), with all the growing pains experienced, is getting it right, or at least getting it better every year. They involve many 1st & 2nd year Webelos (and just not in the Cub Pack from the same CO) in several outings/camp outs/activities during the year.

 

These activities range from Marching together in the Memorial Day Parade, Troop/Community flag Ceremonies, Camperalls, Webelos Skills weekends (taught by 4-5 Boy Scouts), to weekly Troop meetings.

 

No single outing/Troop meeting would be enough to evaluate the program by an observer, since the PLC plans it and the Scouts execute it, it's not always polished.

 

Sure, as Scout leaders we lend a hand, offer guidance and sometimes train the SPL/ASPL on keeping it together.

 

But I tell you what I would not do:

 

- Allow a Webelos Dad to grill the SPL on a binder of info... in fact I'd encourage a parent to sit in back (talk quietly to an ASM) and allow your son to discover it on his own....

 

- Try to be all, to all for Webelos/Parents not ready for Boy Scouting.

 

- Persuade a Webelos to come to our Troop because we did something outrageous the night they showed up - Boy Scouts vote with their feet - no program - no fun - no camping - no new Scouts - can't keep current Scouts.

 

The Troop has a 5-10% growth every year, and probably normal attrition after Scouts get to high School age.

 

A Venturing Crew is available for those still wanting activities without association with younger Boy Scouts and more high-adventure opportunities.

 

But what I said to a transfer (and his Guardian last night) last night who were interested in coming to the Troop...

 

- You decide your activity level

- That will decide how much fun you have, how often you camp, and your advancement (if you want to advance).

- Your PL is not going to call you every week and tell you what you missed.... if you want to know, you better get his phone number, Facebook page or email address.

 

- If you decide to hold a POR (position of responsibility - you and your guardian need to agree to the requirements the PLC set out and be held up to them or be removed).

 

The Troop presents opportunities, more often than not, too much to do everything but enough that some can do a lot of things if they want.

 

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[perdidochas]

My observation is that it's scouts that shop for troops, not dens.

 

My two Webelos Dens have Webelos that crossed over to several different troops, as well as those that stopped scouting after Arrow of Light. The next group of Webelos from my former pack did the same. Most (including my sons) did go to the troop sponsored by our CO. But we had some that didn't particularly like our troop, so they joined larger troops. Our troop has also gotten scouts from a pack besides our co-CO pack.

 

Webelos, at least under my leadership, was preparation for Boy Scouts. I switched more of the decision making to the boys (giving them several choices). I emphasized some simple cooking (hobo meals and omelets in a bag). We worked on identifying wildlife/plantlife. If I had it to do over again, I'd do more non-council related campouts (i.e. not Webelos Weekends or Family Camps).

 

Webelos don't have more in common with Boy Scouts than they do with Bears. It's about equal. I watch Webelos with Cub Scouts, and see the maturity difference. I watch the future crossover Webelos with Boy Scouts and also see a maturity difference (the biggest obvious difference being size). Webelos are not Boy Scouts. Similarly they aren't Cub Scouts. They are a little of both.

[Brewmeister]

Not all COs charter a pack and a troop. Our Pack's CO does not charter a troop, and our sister/feeder troop is chartered by a different CO.

 

My son did not join our sister troop, but that was not because of recruiting. It's because I took him to a bunch of different troops, and he picked the one that he liked.

 

It's unfortunate you've run into heavy-handed recruiting, but troops and the scouters in them don't own the Pack.

 

[Edited for spelling.]

 

(This message has been edited by brewmeister)

[Basementdweller]

ahhhh

 

Failing packs and the associated troops that they belong too.

 

 

so short sighted are many BS leaders......The only way to secure long term security is a feeder pack and a strong relationship with it.....

 

I think the shopping around is complete nonsense......

[perdidochas]

Relationship with a pack is important, but on the other hand, troops differ. One size does not fit all. I look around at camporees, and see the variety of troops. I'm glad we have choices. I also look at some of the boys who were in my den and chose different troops. I'm very glad they aren't in my troop.

[Shilue]

I am all for shopping around. Every troop does things differently. I've seen many cases where a boy goes into the troop associated with their CO, decides that he doesn't like it, and drops out of Scouting. Not realizing that there's a troop down the road that does things more to his liking.

When my son crossed over in February, we did not cross into the troop associated with our pack. I knew how the troop was being run, and I disagreed with their philosophy. They wouldn't allow a boy to start working on merit badges until he was First Class. They wouldn't allow a boy to get his Eagle until he was 16. Those are just some of the ways they ran the troop that I felt were wrong. We visited the troop, and my son wasn't too wild on them either. His best friend was ready to quit because the Scoutmaster scared him. A couple of other boys in our den did not cross over into Scouts, because they didn't like the way the troop was run. I tried to convince them to at least check out the other troops in the area, but they didn't.

So, we went around to the other troops in our district and visited them. I knew which one was the best run troop, and everything I'd seen led me to believe that was the best troop for him to go to. He and his friend visited all of them, then went back to the top 3, and he decided on the one that I felt was his best choice. Interestingly enough, that troop doesn't have a feeder pack, so they are reliant on Cubs that visit, especially from those packs that don't have a troop.

What needs to happen is that Webelos Den Leaders need to explain to the parents about what the Scouting Program is about. How it is supposed to be run. They need to set expectations ahead of time, so parents don't go into a troop thinking it's Webelos III. Then the parents, either alone with their sons or as a den, need to go visit several other troops in the area. Look and see how they are run, and see how welcoming the Boy Scouts are to the visiting Webelos. A first impression can go a long way. The troop my son ended up going to is the only troop where the SPL came up to the boys UNPROMPTED, introduced himself, asked their names, and welcomed them to the meeting. All other troop meetings, it was either adults who came up, or adults who prompted the SPL.

I think troops need to get over the mentality of "The cubs in our pack are automatically coming to our troop", and I think our Packs need to get over the mentality of "Our cubs are going into our troop". Not all troops are the same, just like not all boys are the same. Make the parents and the boys aware that just because 1 troop isn't working out for you, that doesn't mean the the troop down the road won't.

I could care less what troop a boy ends up in. My only concern is that he stay in Scouting in a troop that he enjoys. Whether it's his original troop, or one he transferred to.

[Eagle732]

The reason why we have Webelos III in the Troop level is because packs have Cubs 4 & 5. I see absolutely no transition or preparation to move to the BS level. We invite Webs from our neighboring packs to attend some events but the best we usually get is a short visit during a local outing. I think it all starts with the Den Leader at the Tiger level. A parent wants to be a DL and signs up. Then next year they're the Wolf DL, then Bear and Web leader even though they might have zero outdoors experience or skill. I've said that if I ever was a CM again I would find the most outdoor experienced person (maybe me) and make them the full time Web 2 DL, year after year. I bet that would be a battle!

No wonder so many Webs never last long in troops, what a shock it must be. They hit the door here and the next thing they know they're backpacking, canoeing, hiking, responsible for themselves, etc.(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[SeattlePioneer]

BSA can't do that, but Scout troops can.

 

 

In my view, Scout troops ought to be taking an interest in neighboring Cub Packs where that is welcome, encouraging and supporting them with Den Chiefs and Assistant Scoutmasters to identify unit weaknesses and encourage and support remedying those problems.

 

That goes DOUBLE for Webelos Dens. Webelos Den leaders ought to be adopted by Troop leaders and aided and assisted, and inviting out Webelos Dens on suitable Troop camping trips.

 

Instead, the usual thing is to ignore packs until its time for a crossover ceremony.

[fred8033]

"... SPL came up to the boys UNPROMPTED, introduced himself ... " - Love when that happens. I've seen many SPLs over the last nine years as they change on average every nine months, minimum six months, sometimes 12, 18, 24 or more months. Every SPL is different. Some very impressive. Some not so. It's not a long-term attribute of the troop.

 

...

 

If a troop is dysfunctional or not healthy, sure go ahead and switch. If ya don't get along with the leaders, go ahead and switch. Fine. But why not change earlier? In a continual scouting experience, change when ya realize you don't like the situation. Why wait for the magical Webelos transition? It's a transition that should be eliminated.

 

What's funny is that we have cub members who transferred into our pack from the same pack number as the troop number I have difficulty with. (different charter org as the troop was asked to find a new home five to ten years ago). Thus never recruiting from their current charter org pack. If cubs transfer when they don't like the situation, why not same with others. Transfer when the situation is not a good fit.

 

BUT ... it should be one continuous scouting experience. Then leaders (both troop and webelos leader) can focus on a good program. Not on marketing and a big decision. I suspect it would work very well for most. In our city, I'd say all but one of the troops are very good. And the one that has trouble lost their original charter and doesn't get anyone from their current charter. Guess why.

 

IMHO, the current model creates a "big choice" that's gets blown way out of proportion, wastes alot of time and does more damage than good.

 

[fred8033]

"Instead, the usual thing is to ignore packs until its time for a crossover ceremony."

 

That's sort of what set me off this morning. The other troop offered a den chief to the the Webelos den at the end of the webelos 1st year. Effectively six months left. I know the scout family and he doesn't need the leadership for rank. It's a recruitment effort.

 

The cubmaster suggested the den chief help the bear den that's about to become Webelos. If the scout wants to do it, we didn't want to say no. We just did not feel it's right to step in nearing the end of the Webelos experience. Plus the current Webelos den already has a den chief. If the other troop was at all involved with the pack, they would have known that. Though we hope he helps den, I doubt it. We'll have to see.

 

So guess what wil be discussed at our next troop PLC / committee meeting? Den chiefs. We've had them in the past when scouts are interested and act. Now we need to proactively encouarge scouts to be den chiefs to build that connection too.

[NJCubScouter]

Hey DLChris, how many trailers? Storage shed? Those are some pretty high-class troops you visit. We have one trailer, which is our "storage shed" as well, with the rest of our stuff crammed into closets in the "Sunday school" building where we meet.

 

And you'd better meet with our SPL very quickly "after the meeting", he needs to get home and finish his homework. (He's not my son, that was just a general comment.)

 

If you ever visit my troop, please let me know in advance so I can be somewhere else at the time. Just kidding. But you do, in the words of the Saturday Night Live sketch from my college days, "ask a LOT of questions." They are good questions (well, mostly: I would drop the WWW one) but there are a lot of them.