Demonization of the pocket knife

[perdidochas]

Zero Tolerance as a policy is going away in the schools, thankfully. My wife is about to start her 5th year as an assistant principal, and they rejected zero tolerance around here before that time.

[jdsmerud]

The zero tolerance policies in place in schools and public buildings are a trickle down effect of the post 9/11 climate. When I was an active duty Marine prior to 9/11 we used to fly home on leave and to training with fighting knives in our pockets.That doesn't happen anymore. Common sense isn't common across the country anymore. I've dealt with Scouts having knives in there school bags, and in the rural area I live in it wasn't a big deal, but across the country things are less forgiving. Keep your Scouts on the right side of the "law" as it is applied in your communities until things return closer to the way they once were, as silly as it seems.

[Mr. Boyce]

I'm amazed at these stories.

 

My take on it (what do you think?) is that this "issue" is a bit contrived. . . it allows government employees to "prove" to the public their "professional expertise" about such things.

 

"I am more professional than you, since I can recognize this danger, and you do not!"

 

It's a way of asserting authority.

 

I tell people of the crap I used to carry to junior high school in the 70s and they're shocked. For me, a pocket knife, etc., were just toys to buddy me through the long school day.

[perdidochas]

JDS,

 

Actually "zero tolerance" predates 9/11/2001. For example, the American Bar Association had a working group on zero tolerance as early as 1996. Zero tolerance is going away in American schools. As well all know, it's impractical, and really doesn't work.

[Engineer61]

"As well all know, it's impractical, and really doesn't work."

 

Work's just fine for me.

 

I don't send weapons or medication to school with my kids.

 

I'd prefer that other kids in school do the same as my kids.

 

Just don't see the big deal....except that parents don't want to police their own kids.

[Gunny2862]

And there's part of the problem. I don't Police my kid, never have. I Parent him, which includes how to responsibly carry and utilize items I'm going to expect him to be able to use after I am not in a position of supervision to him.

 

The idea of parents policing their children promotes the idea of punishing them for mistakes rather than teaching them how to correctly and responsibly navigate life.

 

As to not sending medication to school with your child, must be nice not to have to negotiate dosing schedules with school administrators who don't have either a full-time nurse or a designated staff member who is authorized to disburse prescribed meds. on the required schedule. In some cases due to the schools own unrealistic policies the choices become: 1)kid carries the meds, 2) Kid does without meds, 3) Parent quits job so they can be there(after checking in with the office, checking the kid out of class, taking them off of school property, administering the med, returning the child to school, checking them back in).

Oh and how about those sisters who got sunburned (2nd degree) because the school in their infinite wisdom decided that they couldn't allow the children to put on their prescription sunblock because the nurse wasn't there to do it for them - and they wouldn't let the kids stay in the shade either?

[perdidochas]

Zero tolerance replaces judging cases individually with treating all cases the same. It means that the Boy Scout who uses the same backpack for school and scouting gets the same punishment for having his boy scout pocketknife in his backpack as the gangbanger who has a switchblade in his pocket. It is a misapplication of justice. That said, happily, it's going away. Administrators (at least in the local system) are allowed to look at the entire situation, not just mindlessly apply a regulation. Zero tolerance results in less respect for the disciplinary process.

[Engineer61]

Hmmm.. "Police" vs. "Parent"... sorry ... the only difference is how you feel about it.

 

To me they are one in the same.

 

You "parent" your child to do what's right, but you are the "police" when they don't do it.

 

ZT remains in effect in my locale...glad it is too.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

[Outdoors]

Today I just bought my 8 year old son a small fixed blade knife. I will always keep it and if he wants to use it he has to come and ask and get it from me and use it safely under my constant supervision. But just imagine if he accidentally brought it to school (which would also require me to forget to take it back from him), they would have the school locked down, SWAT brought in, and CNN news crews there and he would be expelled and I'd be thrown in jail for child endangerment and have both kids taken away. Heck, he can't even bring it to scout camp so we'll have to get a folder for scouts and then use this other one for other outings. (I dont want to start a fixed vs. folder debate - both have their strengths and weaknesses and like everything you need the right tool for the job)

 

Heck, when I was in high school ('88-91) I do not remember what the policy was on knives. But I do know what the policy was on guns. If it was deer season you could bring your rifle to school as long as it was unloaded and you immediately checked it in with the Principal. And then you picked it up when school entered just before leaving. Students did that that wanted to hunt right after school in the woods behind the school w/o having to go home first. So it was not unheard of to see kids walking down the hall just before school started carrying a gun on their way to the office to check it in. Sounds crazy today, but we are only talking just over 20 years ago.

 

Guess how many kids were shot? None.

 

I do have my grandfather's well used pocket knife. I would like to pass it on to my son. The way society is going it will be outlawed and confiscated from my home long before that time ever comes.

 

 

 

 

[perdidochas]

Outdoors,

 

Unless you live in a strange school district, you are greatly exaggerating. A student with a knife, unless used threateningly, will not get any police attention at all. In strict schools, the student would be suspended for several days regardless of circumstances (or type of knife). In reasonable schools, if the student turned in the knife to an adult voluntarily (i.e. discovered he accidentally had it in his bookbag or jacket, and told the adult immediately, not due to another student turning him in), the knife would be taken up until the parent could pick it up. Other schools/circumstances vary.

[Eagle92]

Does anyone remember the Cub Scout who had the spork, you know the spoon with fork tines that has a cutting tine, that was suspended when he brought it to school?

 

Or the girl who was suspended b/c she brought a paring knife in her lunch box for the fruit she was going to eat?

 

Or the Scout who went camping and left a sheathed hand axe in the trunk of his car after a weekend of camping and was suspended?

 

Or, if I remember correctly, the Army reservist who came back from weekend drill and had a Ka Bar attached to his gear which was in the trunk of his car and was suspended?

 

Doesn't matter if you brandish a knife or not, if a teacher suspects you have a knife on property, they can investigate, even if it's in a locked personal vehicle out of site, and folks have been suspended.

[TAHAWK]

"Call him Mr. Zero Tolerance.

 

The upstate New York school superintendent who suspended an Eagle Scout for 20 days for keeping a 2-inch utility knife locked in his car is unwilling to speak to the teen's family or bend in his ruling.

 

Lansingburgh Central School District Superintendent George J. Goodwin, 55, said in a written statement that his district "has an established policy of zero tolerance with respect to the possession of weapons of any kind on school property or in school buildings."

 

But nowhere in the school district's rule book, which is published online, is there any mention of a "zero tolerance" policy, leading some to question whether Goodwin, in fact, was compelled to suspend the youth.

 

Seventeen-year-old Matthew Whalen, a senior at Lansingburgh High School in Troy, N.Y., says he got in trouble over a survival kit he keeps in his car that includes a sleeping bag, water, a ready-to-eat meal and the small pocketknife, which was given to him by his grandfather, a police chief in a nearby town.

 

When Whalen acknowledged he had the knife locked in his car, he was barred from school for a calendar month. Now that he is getting just 90 minutes a day with a tutor instead of 7 hours of instruction in class, he says he is worried that the suspension will mar his academic record and affect his application to attend the U.S. Military Academy.

 

Whalen was initially suspended for five days by his assistant principal but then had another 15 tacked on by Goodwin following a hearing to decide his fate. Though Goodwin was not present at the hearing, he told Fox News he listened to a tape of the proceedings, and decided to extend the suspension.

 

Since then, Whalen's family says, Goodwin has refused to speak to Matthew even during daily interactions at the district's head office, where he meets with his tutor.

 

District policy appears to leave it to the discretion of school officials to decide whether any punishment will be meted out for an infraction, and it is not clear how or why Goodwin decided on a month of exile for a student with no prior record. The school's policies say:

 

"Students may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including suspension from school" for engaging in violent conduct, which includes merely "possessing a weapon."

 

Though the school has branded possession of the knife to be violent conduct, that might be news to Whalen, who was taught as an Eagle Scout how to handle tools including the pocketknife, and actually instructs Boy Scouts how to handle knives as well.

 

"Scouting instills safety in them from the earliest age," Matthew's father, Bryan Whalen, said in an interview. "And it's actually the older boys like Matthew who instruct the younger boys in knife safety."

 

The Boy Scouts of America, which awarded Whalen a Life-Saving Heroism award for performing CPR on his aunt after she had a seizure, concurred.

 

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,567700,00.html#ixzz20NWi9gSo"

 

"Zero tolerance" = zero judgment

 

Such laws having criminal penalties have been found unconstitutional under Ohio law. I think they slip by on the grounds that there is no criminal penalty, regardless of the possible draconian consequences.

 

The voters need to hold these bureaucrats - or there keepers - accountable.

 

[fred8033]

 

 

perdidochas - Your lucky then. From what I've seen in the last ten years, school administrators are forced to recommend expulsion by default. Anything less and they risk liability if anything else happens.

 

Zero tolerance is a marketing term for zero liability risk and school employees having zero responsibility. I'll admit that I've seen some brave administrators knowingly minimize bad situations. Thus violating school policies. Bless their hearts. But very few do that anymore.

 

The only good news is that there are groups beginning to push back.

 

...

 

Here's the stats from my state for last year. I find it interesting that there was one gun expulsion and 36 pocket knife explusions. Kids are getting expelled for pocket knives. Note that the BSA standard boy scout pocket knife is 3" long and the cub scout knife is 2 and 3/4" long.

 

Here's the stats... CLICK HERE

 

....

 

The one that sticks in my head is this one from years ago. A student with just five tardies worked at a local grocery in the evenings on clean up. His job included using a box cutter to break up card board boxes. He left it in his car in his cup holder. Never threatened anyone. Never carried it on school grounds. Recommended for explusion! Instead received "just" a suspension. People call it a good result but I call it sad, foolish and pitiful. Why punish a boy who did nothing wrong? Why are hearings and punishments involved for something that's just a basic tool used by so so many people and that was part of his normal job? There is nothing fair about this in any way.

 

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/29466674.html

 

...

 

http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2012-05-10/eighth-grader-takes-pocket-knife-school

 

http://www.overcriminalized.com/casestudy/Rankin-End-of-Pocket-Knife.aspx

 

Farmer's son facing explusion for having a knife on him after morning chores.

http://www.waconiapatriot.com/articles/2011/04/07/norwood_young_america_times/news/news02.txt

 

Girl expelled for holding another girl's knife

http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/3708-perry-student-suspension-controversy

[Beavah]

Isn't "Zero Tolerance" Very much like some of us insisting that because something is written down someplace that we have to stick to it. With no exemptions?

 

Yah, that's the attitude.

 

Da thing of it is, most of the state laws I'm aware of do have clauses which allow school administrators to exercise a degree of discretion. So if da "professional" educators actually took the time to understand da law and regulations, and cared about the legislative intent / goals, we wouldn't have da sort of silliness that fred8033 quite correctly points out is goin' on all over the place.

 

Sounds like the attitude we sometimes get into with BSA "rules".

 

Of course, zero tolerance laws caught on as a knee-jerk response to school shootings (which would not have been prevented by the laws), and because of a few isolated cases where school administrators didn't respond appropriately to a true danger. Yeh get some school administrators who don't think they can respond like adult professionals to kids' behavior unless they have a law to hide behind.

 

My solution would be to fire those folks. Yeh don't use laws to address lack of professionalism, yeh use personnel evaluations and employment actions. I'd hope that some of these community school boards would take the time to read da law, understand that their administrators really do have some discretion, and then use personnel evaluations and employment actions when their employees embarrass them and their community by expelling a lad with his boxcutter from work locked in his car.

 

Especially when the baseball team is allowed to keep their bats, eh? And a bat is a much more effective and deadly weapon than a box cutter.

 

Beavah

 

[mdlscouting]

Zero Tolerance.

 

That's why my son was sent to the principal's office as a kindergartner for pointing his finger like a gun and saying "Bang Bang" While playing with friends on the playground.