How to deal with specific tool safety issues without banning the use of the tools?

[5yearscouter]

Richard B writes, and asks:

"Some hypothetical illustrations and hopefully they will help expand the "I do not see how that's dangerous" box several are trapped in.

 

And why did Timmy select a re-roof of the church steeple?

 

Why does Johnny need the 24 foot ladder? To scrape the lead paint off the light poles in the playground before he paints them of course.

 

We want to clean gutters on the homes of the elderly in town as a fundraiser.

 

Don't know why he fell off the semi trailer moving stacks of those boxes (it was just with a hand cart). Falling off the wagon is for another day.

 

But we have those floating air pumps and hoses, it's not like they have to dive more than a few feet to do the work.

 

The scaffold will go to the ceiling so he can change the lights.

 

We didn't know the gas line was there.

 

Not sure why the roof collapsed on them.

 

What does asbestos look like?

 

How is Little Eagle doing? How did his finger get smashed? "They think the finger will stay on, but he wasn't operating - he was just loading it...."

 

 

So more questions: As to the calls for another training, videos, etc. so do we grow our own qualified construction personnel and make every service project a vocational training program?

 

Perhaps create a framework to vet qualified supervision for project oversight? SRC a new acronym for the service project counselor was born today on Scouter.com!

 

Mandate OSHA 10 or 30 hour style course?

 

Require written hazard communication programs (have you collected the MSDS that meets the new GHS for that oak plank?

 

A degree in industrial arts and teaching certificate required to be a counselor? As in schools.

 

Do you see development of said course as strategic to the mission of the organization? How would YOU scope that? "

 

How to deal with these kinds of things in a constructive manner? The best advice I have is that BSA(or the govt) shouldn't make a rule/law based on one incident or type of incident without really understanding the full ramifications of the rule/law, especially the unintended consequences.

 

What do you think could be done to limit the above hazardous things, while still providing the scouts the opportunity to use such hazardous tools as wheelbarrows?

 

saying "more training" needs more specifics, or it will never satisfy the likes of Richard B.

 

 

[5yearscouter]

The first thing is if these tool safety rules apply to scouting in only certain instances, that has to be spelled out.

 

Richard B points to his statements in letters to the editor of boy's life

http://scoutingmagazine.org/contact/letters-to-the-editor-about-our-november-december-2011-issue/

as evidence that the rules do not apply to merit badges?

if so, that should be expressly spelled out.

 

Do the rules apply to eagle projects only (scout led with minimal adult leadership, but most of the time a LOT of adult supervision to improve safety) or other community service projects done by packs and troops (usually with a lot of adult leadership and supervision both, especially with varying age scouts).

 

A simple statement that for use of xyz tools a certified professional in those areas should be on hand to ensure safety could help, but I'll honestly say in my experience, if a scout is using a tool in their eagle project, they usually have such a person on hand at least in the planning process to ensure safe procedures are followed.

 

If these tools can be used for a merit badge, then it must say that. and if a scout has obtained said merit badge to show proficiency with a certain tool, they MAYBE should be able to use said tool in a service project (or eagle project)

 

 

[5yearscouter]

And to annoyingly post 3 times in a row....

 

The church steeple was addressed in the other thread this was spun from. Those who approve eagle projects should have enough experience in these kinds of things to know that.

 

Heck I'd prefer to have constructin projects need a quick check by someone in the construction industry, or a set of questions the eagle candidate must answer/research if they are doing a construction project if that is deemed such an unsafe area of responsbiliity.

 

That would include questions of what is necesssary to determine lead paint, asbestos insulation, unsafe angles of elevation/roofing jobs, and a lot of other issues such as requiring them to get the electrical/gas lines marked by the blue stake people before digging holes. In that instance, it wouldn't matter if it were a 11 or 21 year old that hits an electrical or gas line with a post hole digger, would it? adults aren't any better at finding hidden utility lines, and they are certainly more apt to think if they hit a root to just stomp harder on the shovel to force it thru the material than a younger scout who would give up and go ask what to do about this big root I hit that is really a power line underground.

 

If falling off a trailer with a wheel cart is an issue for a 12-14 year old, it's going to be just as dangerous for a 16 or 18 year old. So a bit of question of safe loading and unloading of project materials should be done.

 

of course, I know some of this ends up being the full paperwork certain councils or districts required that turned eagle projects into horrible cases of paperwork overload for scouts.

 

so basically the changes to the new eagle project workbook, simplifying the requirements, scared the risk safety people and their reply to the "easier" workbook is to just make a bunch of other rules???

 

I know scouts can find adults with superior knowledge to guide them on construction projects for electrical and plumbing and skilled trades. They may be unable in many areas to find adults with such knowledge to come out and do all the grunt work with post hole diggers and wheelbarrows.

[Deaf Scouter]

Industrial Arts is long gone 5yearScouter. Teaching certificates label it now called Technology Education or Tech Ed for short. Tech Ed is NOT to be confused with computers which is now Information Technology or IT for short... *winka

 

OSHA does do high school level safety training courses in many VoPro (Vocational/ Technical Schools) or BOCES (Board of Cooperative Educational Services). Some are equipment geared while others are over all safety in certain fields like Carpentry, Electrician, and etc.

[moosetracker]

Like 5year.. Train up the board or person who is approving the project to ask the right questions and look for problems..

 

Church Steeple or a re-roofing project of any sort, too large a project needing professional skilled labor (although some people do re-roof their own homes, they just would need to kick themselves if it leaks)..

 

Repainting and old building.. Did you check for lead paint?? Any lead paint and it needs to be done by a Haz-mat team..

 

Construction project using power saws. "Who is going to be using the power saws?" etc..

 

Supposibly the Tour Plan is to check that saftey has been planned out, like you have a trained person with you when rock climbing.. This should be the same for Eagle Project approval.

 

 

 

 

[Deaf Scouter]

Teaches delegation and pre-prep organization tools too... *smiles

[Oak Tree]

The BSA has rules on what you have to do to take kids swimming, or take them climbing, or take them boating, or let them go shooting. How hard can it be to come up with reasonable statements on what you need to do to use an electric screwdriver?

 

Some quotes from the Guide to Safe Scouting, as examples:

 

"For recreational sailing, at least one person aboard should be able to demonstrate basic sailing proficiency (tacking, reaching, and running) sufficient to return the boat to the launch point."

 

" instructors for canoes and kayaks should be able to demonstrate the handling and rescue skills required for BSA Aquatics Supervision"

 

"Anyone engaged in recreational boating using humanpowered craft on flatwater ponds or controlled lake areas free of conflicting activities should be instructed in basic safety procedures prior to launch, and allowed to proceed after they have demonstrated the ability to control the boat adequately to return to shore at will."

 

"Every possible contingency will not be covered with a hard-and-fast rule, and rules are poor substitutes for experience. Ultimately, each responsible adult leader must personally decide if he or she understands the risk factors associated with the activity and is sufficiently experienced and well-informed to make the rational decisions expected of a qualified supervisor. The BSA training programs listed above help provide the skills, experience, and guidance for making such a determination."

 

"Powerboat operators must be able to meet requirements for the Motorboating merit badge or equivalent"

 

That's as specific as we get for motorboats. I'd think a roughly similar standard would apply for leaf-blowers. There does not need to be any special electric screwdriver training. It is reasonable to say that power tool usage must be supervised by an adult who is able to use the tool proficiently.

[Stosh]

Of course everyone jumps to the conclusion that the Eagle candidate must show leadership over peers and younger? Why couldn't the candidate show leadership over a group of adults qualified to do the work?

 

I had a candidate clean up a park and he had his crew of adults in chaps, steel toed shoes, ear plugs, hard hats with shields and safety glasses, and gloves do the tree felling with chain saws. He had the boys mark the trees that needed to go, had them clear the area and the adults went to work. After the cutting was done, the boys moved back in to haul out the cut debris.

 

I also had another boy cleaning up after a church building project and the boys did the raking and grunt work, but the adults did the high work and any power tools were in the hands of adults who were a crew from the church.

 

There's nothing wrong with a boy supervising a work crew of adults to get his project done correctly. Not everything has to be done with youth labor. A good leader gets the correct "labor tools" to do the job safely and correctly.

 

Everyone gets worked up by the rules that they forget a good leader will take all contingencies into consideration when planning his project. Put the right person with the right tools. End of discussion.

 

Stosh

[5yearscouter]

I agree that the eagle candidate needs to get the right people with the right tools to get the job done, and OFTEN they do show leadership over the adults who are there to do the dangerous jobs.

 

In that theme, I see nothing wrong with how things work right now.

I do see a LOT wrong with the list of tools banned for use by scouts in RichardB's document. I do not believe the tools listed as requiring only those over 18 to use them, are a list of tools that only those over 18 can properly use.

 

The tools are not the issue as much as the use or misuse of the tools that anyone of any age is capable of doing.

 

if a wheelbarrow is loaded improperly for a scout to use it, it is going to be loaded improperly for an adult to use it. if the wheelbarrow is being used to improperly unload materials from a trailer and the scout is squished by the wheelbarrow, then the same thing is likely to occur when adult tries it. Being older does not equal being wiser.

 

In the instance of having the adults cut down the trees and the scouts clear the trees, the scouts cannot use a wheelbarrow or cart of any kind ot transport the tree parts or pieces. That is a rediculous limitation based on a poor evaluation of the risks of wheelbarrow use. Richard B carefully ignored the statement that Wolves are allowed and encouraged to use wheelbarrows, but boy scouts can't.

 

[5yearscouter]

Oak tree made this nice list in the other thread:

 

Hypothetical examples given by RichardB as a argument for why we need these rules:

 

 

Re-roof the church steeple

24 foot ladder to scrape the lead paint off the light poles in the playground

Clean gutters on the homes of the elderly in town as a fundraiser.

Using a hand cart to move stacks of boxes off a semi trailer

Floating air pumps and hoses used while diving a few feet

Using a scaffold to go to the ceiling so he can change the lights.

Digging into a gas line

Having a roof collapse

Dealing with asbestos

Getting a smashed finger from loading something.

 

 

Actual things banned by the form:

 

Pickaxe

Mattock

Posthole digger

Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)

Paint roller with extension pole

Screwdriver (electric)

Handheld sander (small)

Cutting tools (e.g., Dremel, small)

Paint sprayer

Residential lawn mower

Line trimmer

edger

Leaf-blower

hedge trimmer

belt sander

pressure washer

 

 

How do these lists have anything whatsoever to do with each other?"

 

I'd really like an answer, cause I think that list really contributes to the disconnect between RichardB's statements and our understanding.

It's kind of like comparing apples and swingsets.

does not compute.

 

I also wonder what exactly is sooooo dangerous about cleaning out leaves from gutters? People do it every year. Sure someone falls off a ladder or off a roof, but that's usually when you have one lone homeowner up there with nobody to hold the ladder for them and they are trying to do it all by themselves. But is it inherently seriously oh so dangerous of an activity?

[Stosh]

While age does not automatically assume wisdom, I agree. However, an adult may be able to overcome a problem by having had some experience that a young lad does not. Adult strength could also be an asset especially with an improperly loaded wheelbarrow. However, with that being said, a smaller person using a bucket may have to make more trips, but often times a job could be done differently and in a safer manner than trying to do a big job all at once.

 

In the case of the cleanup of the trees, one adult/large boy could maybe handle a wheelbarrow with a full load, but three scouts could probably do the same amount of work. Heck, no one's getting paid on these projects, so an Eagle candidate needs to take into account necessary resources. One adult with a wheelbarrow vs. 3-4 scouts with pails. Just part of the planning. While a scout may not be able to drop a full tree safely, he could with a buck saw and a little elbow grease clean it up after it has been dropped. Sure it would take more time, but the project isn't a race.

 

With MB's and such where the boy is expected to handle dangerous tools, that is quite a different subject. Part of the MB should be in training the boy to use the tool properly regardless of the rules. Can a Cub Scout cut out his PWD car? Maybe not with a table or jig saw, but he surely could make headway with hand tools just fine. Heck, I whittled my PWD car with a pocket knife that I was trained to use. It didn't win any prizes for speed or looks, but it was my car, I built it, and that's all that counted. I may have been last place loser, but I still have the car 50 years later.

 

When I took boys canoeing, I always had a newbie scout in the front of my canoe and he knew he was "stuck" with the SM and everyone else got to go with their buddies. I would always whittle a small paddle put the date, place and his name on it. After a while the boys caught on and would draw straws to canoe with me. I noticed that 2 of the boys had them on their display table for their ECOH's. It surely would have been a lot easier to use some power tools to make those, but I had all weekend to make it and I always got one made before the trip was over.

 

I have a 6' stave/walking stick I carry on most activities. Over the years I have burned in places and dates of where I have taken it. One boy was amazed that I spent that much time woodburning in all that writing and designs. He was blown away when I told him I used a magnifying glass on a sunny day to do it.

 

I have also figured out over the years that doing it slow and carefully using hand tools is often tedious, but tends to be a bit more safer. Yay, I've been known to knick myself when I whittle, but a bow saw can do more damage in a shorter period of time. A chain saw? I don't even want to think about that. I still drop full sized trees with an axe. People think I'm nuts, and they may be right.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Basementdweller]

All these bans and rules are in place because someone did something stupid and then got a lawyer.....

 

 

 

[Deaf Scouter]

Basement.. sums it up well... *smiles

 

Stosh... nice ideas. Got an uneven number for a long while so this is a nice trick to share me around...*laughing. Plus its a great way to get that knife used in a positive way by my active bunch... *smiles

[JMHawkins]

Actual things banned by the form:

 

Pickaxe...

 

Considering the popularity of Minecraft these days, banning a pickaxe might just be the single worst recruiting move BSA has made lately.

 

 

[rrodri2613bsa]

It is important to use proper lighting while working with power tools, particularly when working in the basement and garage where lighting may not be satisfactory.